Episode 115 – Author Series – Dr. Robert Glover

Michael 3:52
joining me today, I'm excited to say is Dr. Robert Glover. Dr. Glover wants you to tell us a little bit about yourself.

Dr. Glover 4:08
What about me? As I said, What you're talking to men going through divorce or been divorced. I've been divorced twice myself. So I've been down that road. My My background is my training. I'm a marriage and family therapist. So I started working with couples probably 40 years ago. So I've worked with a lot of people in distress, a lot of couples in distress. And then I started working on some personal issues in myself when my second marriage was was faltering. 30 plus years ago, and, and basically my then wife said, you either go get some therapy or wisdom helper, I'm leaving you I got okay. You're the one that's unhappy all the time. You're the one who's always angry, moody, and you know, Bubba never wants to have sex. Right? And so I said, Okay, I will. And so I actually fell I kind of a little bit of the backstory is is that you know, of course my book is my first book anyways, no more Mr. Nice Guy. That's probably what I'm most well known for and less in singles community. I've written two books for single men as well. But But so, you know, I went to 12 Step group I joined a men's group I got into therapy mainly to figure out why me being a nice guy didn't make my wife happier. You know, I tried to make her happy. You know, I gave her everything she wanted. You know, I was really good at avoiding conflict. Well, she liked conflict. So you know, but no matter how hard I tried, well, you still had conflict. You know, I didn't realize it but I withheld a lot from her anything I thought that might upset her might rock the boat might put her in a bad mood might make her less wanting to have sex. So luckily, I fell into some good places where I began really looking deeply at myself. I already had my doctorate in marriage and family therapy, but I've never really done much work on me. And I started realizing I had a lot of what he called Nice Guy patterns. I thought if I'm a nice guy, I'll be liked and loved and I'll get my needs met. I just treat everybody well. Basically, I was trying to be different from my father. My mother raised me to be different from my father. She told me that as a boy, I was trying to be different than all the men that I'd heard women complain about. I was trying to be different from the men that I heard the angry feminist of the 60s and 70s Complaining about so I thought if I just you know am nice and not like all those bad men, women will respond well to that. And, in hindsight, what I found is that if you're single, they don't respond at all to you being nice. You don't exist. And if you're in relationship, you typically just get taken advantage of and hurt and and ended up really not making your partner happy, no matter how hard you try. So as I began working on me and seeing the kind of errors of my thinking and my training and my programming, if I'm just nice, everything will work out well in life. And as a therapist, I was working with couples and individuals and I started noticing a lot of the men coming to me for couples therapy either on their own or with their girlfriend or wife, or saying the same things I was saying in my relationship. I'm a nice guy. I'm one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. I treat her better than her ex I'm raising her kids. I gave her everything she wants, you know, but it's never good enough. When's it gonna be my turn. She never wants to have sex anymore. She's always in a bad mood. And I thought Wait, I'm not the only one with this kind of dynamic going on. So I started a no more Mr. Nice Guy, men's group, private 30 years ago, met every other week and then quickly started another one. And I started writing just chapters lessons to give these guys what I was discovering about me about what I came to call nice guy syndrome. And and you know, these guys and their wives and girlfriends were saying, Robert, you need to write a book. There's a lot of people that need this. So over a period of about six or seven years, it evolved into a book took about three years to get it published. Because back then every publishing company we talked to said oh, we like your book, but our marketing department says men will buy self help books. Right and that was pre Amazon. So you know how many of you guys listening right now I have a shelf of self help books. They go by one after Oh, and this book recommended you buy that one too? Yeah. Men, men buy self help books in what I what I told the publishing companies or what I told the editors is you don't know the men I'm talking to you. They want to be good men. They want to live good lives. They want to have good experiences in life. And so over the last no more Mr. Nice Guy came out in 2003. So that 20 years now. Since then, I said I've written two books for single guys, mainly because after 14 years in that second marriage, for probably 14 years too many in that marriage. I became single and decided, you know, I can go out and just start learning trying to date and I'm just going to end up exactly with what I had in my first two marriages. And neither of them were particularly satisfying even though I stayed quite a long time because nice guys tend to do that we stay way too long. So I thought I need to learn to How to Date effectively I need to learn how to become a better picker. number one pick better women not not not like better in terms of value, or better in terms of the better fit for me and match my values that you know, that that I like being with and they like being with me. And the second thing I thought I learned how to be a better Ender. Because if I just go date the first woman I need you know, I'm going to stand up exactly where I was before. And so I realized that being a good Ender covers a multitude of sins of being a bad picker. Because really, that's what dating is a lot of bad picks. You're not supposed to end up with every woman you want to date with. That's often how we get into these relationships that we got into that didn't work so well. We probably weren't very good at dating, where maybe we're kind of insecure with women. Maybe we've been trained in our childhood and our families, tolerate bad behavior, put up with things that don't feel good to you. Just type it out or try harder. And probably a lot of your men listening can relate to that. Yeah, I just, you know, there are qualities about this woman I liked her. I wouldn't have married her I wouldn't have gotten with her. But it seemed like over time, the qualities I liked the good qualities kept shrinking and the bad qualities that I didn't like that I thought I could get her over or through all we knew I could live with. They kept getting worse, right? Probably most of the guys are going yeah, that was me. I like to this about her, but that part disappeared. The parts that I didn't like, you know, took over. And so that's where being able to be a good Ender and say this doesn't work for me, it's time to move on. And that's where most of the men I worked with, and this includes me really struggle with that part. But it's essential. Yeah, there's me. There's a little bit of a nutshell.

Michael 11:19
Well, and I'll probably say this more than once. Thanks for doing this. I really appreciate it. So I like to define things so let's define what is a nice guy in your view what how do you define a nice guy?

Dr. Glover 11:30
Okay, so a nice guy in the way that I look at it. And by the way, I think another thing why publishers maybe we're a little bit leery of no more Mr. Nice Guy is you know, people pick up bugs. Why would somebody write a book telling men to be not nice? There's already enough not nice guys out there. But you know the book you know the title is a certain you know, it takes a phrase that we're all familiar with no more Mr. Nice Guy. I'm not taking any more and applying it to men that in their life so I'm a nice guy, right? We define ourselves is that frequently. So a nice guy is identified. It is a man who at a very early age, we're talking a few weeks old few months old few years old, in accurately internalized a belief about themselves that they weren't good enough that there's something wrong with them they're defective or unlovable. The technical term for this is toxic shame. For toxic shame is an emotional belief. Not necessarily thinking now thinking often gets layered on top of emotional but when a child is born, we were all completely dependent, helpless, naive under functioning. The parts of our brain the only parts of our brain fully developed at birth who the person around survival fight flight freeze, respiration, heartbeat, need the need to sleep the parts around reasoning didn't start developing till several months later, and don't finish developing and mental by age 25. That's why our car insurance goes down. Our reasoning ability goes up and we quit doing quite so many stupid things, especially behind the wheel of a car. So we were born in this very dependent needy place, and we had lots of painful experiences everybody does, even if we grew up in good families. If we were hungry and didn't get fed, that was painful. If we were cold and didn't get wrapped up, that was painful. We were lonely and didn't get held that was painful. We had a belly ache, an earache, whatever. All those things were painful. And every child by nature is narcissistic. They're the center of their cosmos. So they internalize beliefs and beliefs actually not the best word because they don't actually think it they feel it there's something wrong with me, I caused this. And so every human child without the without the access to a reasoning part of their brain, only an emotional brain starts trying to manage these painful uncomfortable life threatening situations. And they do that by trying to medicate their feeling states in the moment. I sucked my thumb to I was in kindergarten think maybe I was medicating some emotional states. Maybe babies eat maybe they cry. Maybe they wet on themselves. Maybe they sleep a lot. Maybe they become needles and wantlist but they're trying to manage those uncomfortable feelings right now. The second thing that every infant tries to do and many animals do this. I've got a three year old Pitbull who dogs do this as well. They manage her uncomfortable feelings but they also try to prevent those uncomfortable feelings from happening. again in the future. So again, doing this with a really immature brain, and a really immature nervous system. So every human does this nice guys do it in their own particular way. And what that usually looks like, is this toxic shame and maybe heightened states of anxiety inside of us. Nice guys tried to do two things and this does apply to women as well. There's a lot of nice girls out there I think. I think most nice guys I know got trained to be nice guys by nice girl mothers. That seems to be shifting. Now a lot of young men I work with had nice guy fathers and you know bitchy controlling, you know, terrible mother's. It seems to be shifting somewhat. But what every nice guy tries to do is twofold. Number one, if I can just become what I think other people want me to be. Then I will get loved and liked and get my needs met. So we're chameleons where we're we're always checking what do I have to do the pleases person to get value? The second thing nice guys do is we try to hide anything about ourselves that might get a negative reaction from people around us. The things that nice guys tend to hide the most is their needs and wants and their sexuality because we're afraid if I have needs if I have wants if I'm if I'm a sexual creature. People will respond negatively to that I'll get hurt. I'll get punished. I'll get shamed. So nice guys walk through life beginning early. first few months first few years of life. It really gets amped up in adolescence, when you want to start fitting in and belonging and be noticed by the opposite sex. And we have to figure out how to do that. Oh, I'll just become what I think everybody wants me to be and I'll hide anything that might get a negative reaction. So it gets reinforced. We bring that into adulthood and that becomes our operating system for life. Now, how I explain that is those internalized beliefs, those inaccurate emotional beliefs. Again, they're not intellectual. They're emotional. They're in a part of our primitive part of our brain that operates purely on emotion. They become our machine language, our operating language of our emotional nervous system. Everything else in life is apps that run on top of it. So how we interact at work, how we interact with family, how we interact with women, how we interact in various situations work with other guys are just the apps running on top of that, that primitive machine language that says I'm not good enough, I'm unlovable, I'll be found out. I have to be I have to be what I want other people to what other people want to be. I have to hide myself. And so we walk through life trying to get our needs met all the time. Not being real, not being authentic, never been vulnerable. Not taking risk hiding things that we think people might react negatively to. And then we wonder, well, how come I don't feel more likeable? How come I don't have more love in my life? How come I don't have more friends? How come I'm not as successful as I think I could be? Well, primarily because we're working from this paradigm that says I can't be me. I gotta I gotta be what I think they want me to be. And I got to hide this as as as a really emotionally burdening way to try to go about living life. But a lot of men are doing it. I've tried to do it. For many years.

Michael 18:00
Yeah. And so one of the questions I was gonna ask, one of the things I was gonna ask is, how much of this comes from childhood? Clearly, I think probably all of it or at least a very large percentage of it. So I guess then the question for me becomes, can you address your shit your issues? Your dysfunctions, your weaknesses without addressing your childhood? Um,

Dr. Glover 18:21
yes or no? Yes or no? That's a good question. I'm a therapist and you know, by training but probably more like a coach and how I practice and again, I've been working with men exclusively for over 20 years, both in groups individual work, I'm just started a virtual workshop last night, go for six weeks. So I've been working with men for years now. And in my work, we do both often will will will go back to the past, we'll, we'll look at what created our internal belief systems. And we'll also look at what's not working right now, which is usually the best window the path I know best path or window to our past and I know and that's usually where I start guys with individual consultation or what's not working right now. Is it relationship is it sex Is it money is it work career? We dive into that? And usually, we find in the in the past, inaccurate beliefs we internalize experiences we had that maybe were traumatic or defense mechanisms or neuroses that developed in path in the past. Now, I don't I don't believe we can actually even completely uncover everything that has contributed to who we are. A lot of who we are just natural temperament. I'm a fairly naturally easygoing guy. I don't like conflict in general. I like to be liked in general. That's me, right? That's me. Now that set me up in many ways to then interpret my life experiences through those those natural temperament ways. of avoiding conflict and trying to get liked those things so a lot of nice guys have that natural temperament. Now there's also a number of nice guys and no more Mr. Nice Guy talks about two types of nice guys when I call the I'm so good, nice guy. And I'm so bad, nice guy, or that most of that. I thought most of those guys were probably like me. I'm so good. I'm one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. What I had done is I taken my my toxic shame and locked it away in a really tight compartment. And layered on top of that all the things I did that I thought made me a good guy, right but it was still a reaction toxic shame. So all I could see what everything I've got this great bank account of all these good things that I do and who I am, everybody should like me and love me. Nobody should ever get mad at me or tell me I'm wrong. Right? On the other hand, what I call the I'm so bad, nice guy was the child or young boy that seemed to get off the rails early at a young age maybe add ADHD they were in trouble at school all the time couldn't pay attention. They were told they were stupid. Maybe grew up an alcoholic family that add ADHD they probably had family members that did they probably drank to manage it. Maybe abuse issues, sexual trauma, and they start acting out at an early age drugs, alcohol, sexuality dropping out of school fights, and they internalize a lot of times I'm bad. I'm in trouble all the time. I'm stupid I can't do anything in school that okay, I'm so bad and I know what happens with these guys. The either because of like a DD ADHD addictions and oppositional defiant personality type by nature, like I said, I'm compliant. But there's others that are oppositional defiant. It's just temperament is what we're born with. So these guys go through life piling the shame on Oh man, I doing drugs. I ended up in jail. I gotta go to 12 steps I gotta go to treatment. You know, I'm, you know, I'm bankrupt until something happens. They go in the military and kind of get straightened out. They find 12 steps or get straightened out. They you know, get into a relationship and get straightened out. They have a child and you know, and then they say, I gotta straighten my life out. And they and they do, but Right. And so they go I'm going to become a good a better person. I'm gonna become a good person. I'm gonna become a nice guy. But right beneath that, is that all that memory of all the fuck ups? You know? And so they they they live with two things, one on one slip away from just slipping back into all that fuckup and I can't let anybody see who I really am. Because if they know how fucked up I am, they're gonna hurt me or leave me. So we're pretty guarded and we do and they do all the nice guy stuff. So one nice guy, not aware of his shame to say everybody should like me. I'm great. The other one is fully aware of his shame and goes off anybody finds out there gonna lead me right? So both of these men are trying to negotiate their way through life through through relationship, and this is where it does tend to show up the most in relationship. I've worked with single guys and up now I went through by the 1012 period, your period of being single and dating and having some relationships but living alone and being single. I am married again and been married for almost seven years. With night single nice guys. Kind of the meme is you know women all say they want a nice guy but they don't want me you know, they tell me all your I end up in the friend zone. They say you're such a nice guy. Some lucky woman will be so lucky to have you someday, but they don't want me right. So so trying to be nice to not attract women in general now that will attract broken women that have been with a lot of assholes. But those broken women or come up with a nice guy and just take control, just walk all over it. I'm not blaming the women that's just that's just how the system works. Yeah. Where it shows up in relationship is guys would say my wife never wants to have sex anymore or she's always angry and no matter how much I give, it's never enough. I can't make her happy. And then you know, they ended up where were these guys are that are listening to this podcast? Is it okay? She cheated on me. You know, it just became intolerable. I couldn't take it anymore. And probably you know, again, a lot of you guys are probably like me, you know, nice enough that I can't end it. That would make me a bad guy that would make me a bad person. It will devastate her we have kids we have debt we have a house we we made a commitment to God you know we're family we're all of this gets intertwined goes I can't walk away from that. I can't leave it. Even though if any of you guys listening are like me. I've spent most of my marriages my first I've been married well over 30 years between three women. And I've until the my most recent marriage I spent most of the years and those relationships thinking about I wish I wasn't here, you know, how can I get out? But not getting out? Because again, not not a good Ender? And that would be not nice. So, and I you know, I've often said that all of my marriages have made me more unhappy than happy. Now with that said, I'm really grateful for her the women I've been married to and for the relationships I've had besides my marriages, because they got me on a path of learning about me. And it was the big stick upside my head that woke me up like like in 12 Step programs you hear a lot of like recovering alcoholics. I'm a grateful recovering, alcoholic and so grateful. Why alcohol? It destroyed your life. No, it woke me up. My Nice Guy patterns in relationship woke me up and gave me a pathway to live life more on my terms with more consciousness and truly be a good man. Not a nice guy. And being a good man doesn't mean I'm trying to make everybody happy and pleased them or get their approval. Being a good man says I live with integrity. I'm honest, I'm transparent. I live life on my terms. And people can either come join me in that or don't, that's fine. So as I said, that's where these nice guy patterns tend to show up a lot is in relationship they show up in work and career. Hidden secretive behaviors were the alcohol or marijuana. I work a lot of men that have porn compulsions, gaming gaming, compulsions, wasting time surfing the internet, compulsions, Netflix compulsions, so a lot of nice guy patterns show up and just that not living up to our full potential and just wasting a lot of time.

Michael 26:53
So how I mean, how important is it, then? I mean, I just think it's essential to actually hang on one second. Put my fucking laptop in or this is going to be a quick interview. How important is it to to look back though, like I think, yeah,

Dr. Glover 27:09
I kind of I guess I probably I probably didn't fully answer that question.

Michael 27:13
Well, I think Well, I think you said it's, you need both and I agree with that. But I think I think it starts there. I think you have to be able to look back and understand the dynamics of your childhood that led to some of these things because these things your your behaviors don't come there's not a vacuum right? They they developed for a reason, like you are behaving a certain way and I think it's I think for me it takes the pressure off of the individual to understand a little bit better, like, Oh, I'm not, I'm not a nice guy because I'm weak. It's because the patterns that I developed the tools that I was given. So, I mean, I think it's essential, but it leads me to a question because you you know, obviously you've done a lot of work on yourself. What is the relationship like with your parents? I mean, I don't know if you know, they're still around, but what was it like and what is it that it evolved to develop? Did you have a hard time, sort of reconciling what they may have done and how it contributed to some of your dysfunctions? What was your relationship like with them? Yeah,

Dr. Glover 28:13
that's a good question. And I've spent 30 plus years looking at that. And because, you know, I got into therapy in my early 30s. Again, when my second wife said, You got to go get help. And luckily, I got with some good therapists. And and as I said, therapy is often looking back. And so the reason why I haven't given you a clear answer to this, is that there there in my mind, there isn't one as I said, you know, the age old debate of nurture versus nature, you know, are we who we are because we were born that way. Are we that way? Because we were influenced by our environment to be that way. I don't know that anybody's got that one nailed yet. I mean, we've been debating it for centuries.

Michael 29:01
Yes. Um, I will add,

Dr. Glover 29:07
the older I get. And the more I work on me and work with people. I keep leaning more and more and more in the nature, direction of things that we were born with a temperament. Yeah, you know, if you raise more than two, two children are more. You start seeing temperament at a really, really early age and children. You know, they pop out with the temperament and you start realizing that it is probably our temperament that influences how we view and deal with early life experiences, especially as a marriage and family therapist. You know, I've looked at a lot of family systems. And you'll see children in the exact same family system grew up with pretty much the same experiences other variables come in birth order, gender, just how many kids were ahead of them, or behind them, you know, where their parents happen to be at when they're born. You know, I've worked with some people that, you know, they're 20 years younger than their next oldest sibling. So, you know, by the time their parents had them, they were old, you know, but their other siblings you know, had a different life experience, but are and I really think the temperament goes a long way to determine how the environmental factors affect us because most families I've looked at if there's more than one kid and if there's a nice guy or a nice girl, there's also a not nice child in there. There's usually an acting out child. So for example, if you were acting out a lot as a child and young man and if you had a brother, odds are that brother would take 180 degrees different path to not be like you he would be the compliant one, the one that didn't rock the boat, that wasn't a moment's problem. So I've seen the same families turn out with a very similar environment for the children. Turn out children that went completely different directions. This one goes off into you know, addictions and depression and early suicide, and this one becomes a PhD and a scholar and lives in exemplary life. Okay, well, it makes a difference wasn't the environment because environment was pretty similar for both but I think the temperament determine how we dealt with that. So you can't separate them. Now, does our early life experiences affect us? Yes, completely. Part of the problem and again, I'm not I'm not I agree with you, but I'm throwing out some side points. I think I'm, I'm a therapist by training. I think therapy is valuable. I've done a lot of therapy. Absolutely. At 67 years old. I'm still trying to put pieces together from you know, I was just kind of just a day or two ago. Just contemplating All right. You know, my father was his negative, critical, unpredictable mood. But yeah, I loved him. He taught me to play ball. We went camping, fishing, you know, I loved him, but he was unpredictable and moody and critical. My mother on one hand felt safer to me. But in hindsight now, I mean, because he's still alive. My father has been dead since 2009. My mom's still alive. She had a stroke about four years ago. So she's somewhat debilitated but still lives alone, and I go, I go visit her as often as I can. And I love her, but I didn't talk to either my parents for 15 years when I started doing my recovery because there was too much toxic dynamic there. And I look back at my mom, and to this day, she can't say I love you, if I don't say it first. So I say I say it a lot to her to torment her. Because she will say it back if I say first my wife and I have this running joke. Your mother said I love you first. I said yeah, she actually did. And my wife and I both give her a lot of hugs because she would not give a hug unless someone hugged her. But when I give my mother a hug, she doesn't let go first. Right? So that's my mother's stuff. I remember asking my mother in her my aunt, her twin sister about two or three years ago. I said, What do you remember about your mother? And both of them looked at each other and they go nothing. They didn't remember anything about their mother. Their mother apparently worked all the time, was probably less nurturing and affectionate than my mother. Right there. My mother, you know, I know went out of her way to do good things for her children. She wanted us to have a good life. She spent time with us. She taught us exactly her love language is acts of service. Her love language is not hugs and I love us. So that so I was just I was just kind of lying on my bed the other day thinking how do those two pieces mom and dad I've been working on this for over 30 years? How do those keep unconsciously affecting the choices I make in relationship? I'm still trying to put that puzzle together. And I'm not and I'm not a dumb or not introspective guy.

Michael 34:22
I think it's the foundation. I think I I do think while parents and children can be raised in the same environment had different outcomes. It's because I do think it's it boils down to the parents and they're humans and they're fallible. So they might treat one way one way, I think, I think I think temperament and personality and stuff obviously plays a role. I do think it's sort of splits down the middle to varying degrees. Probably I think a really bad environment will counteract a really good nature right so so if it's a really good bones so to speak of a kid but he's raised in squalor and beaten and that's going to it's going to affect that kid it no matter what like that, that that nature that environment. So or that or that nurture, that environment. So I think I think it definitely varies and it can go different ways. But I do think you have to address it. I think foundation of everything.

Dr. Glover 35:15
Because here's the deal. Again, I'm not disagreeing with you. It's just that we can't be quite as black and white is because like I've known I've known people that grew up in the most horrendous environments. Sure, and they're amazingly well adjusted people. I've known people that grew up with every advantage and everything you could have, and they there's fucked up as you can be. Yeah. Okay, so here, but here's the deal. And one reason why I was contemplating this just a couple days ago, is I'm reading a new book from a good friend of mine. You should get him on your podcast. name is Dr. Shaun T. Smith. He wrote a book. He's been on your podcast. Yes, sir. He's a buddy of mine. I love he wrote it, you know tactical guide to women. And his new book is called gatekeepers a tactical guide to commitment. And the main premise is that a man cannot let his romantic impulses and drive to you know connect them pleased with a woman to get in the way of his values and his purpose in life. And and he does a really good job of addressing it. I as I read it, I kind of think, okay, it's kind of like David data's way the Superior Man meets Rollo Tomassi he's, you know, rational male. It's kind of got a little bit of a little red pill, Red Pill feel to it, but kind of the David data consciousness thing of you got to put your purpose, you know, first, it was really good. So I've been reading that, and I'm really loving it. And again, Sean's good friend of mine. And so I'm pondering here's the deal is that I've been a marriage therapist for a long time and I've always approached relationships, I think was pmld. That said, we tend to be attracted to partners that have the worst traits of both of our parents. Unconsciously, we will recreate in our adult relationships, what we experienced as children because it feels familiar to us. We dealt with a critical parent will probably picked critical partners, we had unavailable parents will pick unavailable partners therapy is good to help us kind of get a handle on that. Yeah. And but because we do this unconsciously, and Shawn does a good job of talking about that and gatekeepers about the unconscious dynamics at work. We pick our partners with very little rational input with a something about it clicks and the way I was put it, when we were a few weeks old, few months old, few years old, we develop tools to deal with the dysfunction with the with the craziness that we had in our families, you know, even in the families that look really good often there's a lot of hidden craziness. So whatever those tools are, that we develop, well, I'll get good at, you know, being the good companion to mom and talking her down and talking her through when she's sad. I'll get good and never rocking the boat with my dad and pleasing Him. Those are the tools I've got in my relationship toolbox. I'm going to carry that toolbox into my adult life. And the I will I'll create I'll attract women to let me use those tools right now if I if I attract a woman that doesn't need my companionship and me needing to listen to her problems. What do I do? I don't know. How to relate to that woman or if she's not critical or moody or you know, not unpredictable. Hey, I got tools for that one. Well, okay, you know, we want to use the tools we learned in childhood so therapy can be really helpful to help us realize what tools we developed as children just survive these intimate relationships and why we developed them, and how we're still using them today. Now, there's the one last thing I'll say about the therapeutic process. Again, I'm a therapist, I believe in but there are some pieces we'll never get access to. They're stored up in emotional memory. They're not in picture memory. We don't have words for them. I've done some Ayahuasca ceremonies that were really powerful nowadays are doing a lot of experimenting with MDMA. With psilocybin connected with therapy, which is opening a lot of doors. Freud did it through free association through ink blogs, you can do it through artwork. I mean, there's lots of ways to get to the unconscious and the unconscious is amazingly helpful. But not necessarily always completely accurate. Because think about it for a minute. When you were a child and you had XYZ experience. You were experiencing it through your your lenses, your temperament, your senses, and your sibling might have interpreted that completely different which one of you is right I mean my my my son will come to me say Dad, you remember XYZ when I was a kid, my son's 38 And I go I don't fucking ever remember that happening. It is either I'm in denial or one reality, but he'll he'll break up stuff. And I go, I don't even have that in a memory bank anywhere but in his memory bank is completely real. So part of the problem with with digging around in this stuff is real to us because that's how we experienced it and interpreted it. That's what we have to deal with. Was it really I would happen, maybe, maybe not. Okay. So I get I agree with you that this is beneficial information to say, for example, why do I keep repeating the same thing in relationship right? Why am I underperforming and working? Career? Why Why can't I quit drinking? Well, you probably did inherit that from mom and dad tends to be a genetically inherited trait. You know, why can't I pay attention? Well, you might have inherited that too. Why don't have a ruminating brain? Odds are you inherited that? Did your life experiences add fuel to all of those? Probably

Michael 41:07
from Yeah, so I think it's important to understand, but then we also have to have tools and speaking of tools, and you sort of talked about rumination out there, throw that out there. That's a problem I see in here a lot. It's probably my experience. Not as much anymore I've done a lot of work on myself. I'm a really big believer in in therapy and in working on yourself and understanding your childhood but you also need to develop tools, right? Yeah. So some of those some of those tools that because we weren't given them, whoever raised us whatever our situation or circumstance. Nobody in my family unit was equipped with the tools that I needed, not my mother, not my father, nobody and so but now it is our responsibilities as grown folks to learn some things. So what is the tool or what do you recommend for someone who who just rumination Maybe Bob, I want to focus more on just the ability to let go because there's guys that are in this group that had been here. There's 7000 men in here. There's some men that have been here for five years and they still struggle, and they can't let go, and they don't know what to do. I know what I tell them, but sometimes, you know who the hell am i You sir or somebody so

Dr. Glover 42:19
that makes me more right I know.

Michael 42:21
I don't know about that. But I think I think your your words bear more weight because you wrote a book the whole lot. But so so what what is what is it that you recommend to someone who just can't let go?

Dr. Glover 42:32
Okay, I actually teach a whole course. On what I call the ruminating brain. My father had a ruminating brain. I, I do to some degree I do in context. I think every every wife on Pat has had a ruminating brain. So I've lived with it. I think it's one reason I'm attracted to the women I am attracted to because I learned to navigate my father's ruminating brain, his moods is unpredictability is his detachment from reality. You know, he could, you know, his feelings became facts. And that's often true with with people growing and adding brains, what we feel becomes real and then we go looking for evidence to support it, and we just keep building the case. That's what ruminating is, is building

Michael 43:19
a case. Right? There's

Dr. Glover 43:19
comfort in that right there is it gives you the illusion of control. Right? And again, like I got a whole, you know, 16 lesson course on ruminating brain, it. The ruminating brain convinces you is gathering important information so that you don't make the same damn mistakes over and over again, that tells us that that's not really what it's doing. It can go back in time and rehash missed opportunities, bad experience, bad choices and say, Well, if I just done that different, I just done that debrief and done that way. And it gives you the illusion that if you could have just figured that out, right? You'll never make that mistake again and everything will be okay. It doesn't actually all it really does is make you feel like a total fucked up loser. Because if you rehash the same proceed, mistake, missed opportunity. Fuck up enough times. That's like the totality of your world, especially if you've got several of those things you regularly revisit. You spend enough time looking at where you fucked up. You're gonna feel fucked up. And it becomes your belief system about you. So it perpetuates the toxic shame. Another thing that we do by you know, kind of rehashing that past is we really create what I call a revisionist history or one of my clients called the castles in the sky. We think if I just had not done that 25 years ago, I remember once teaching this course in person, one guy by my age in his 60s said, you know, I still ruminate about that missed sexual opportunity. I had my sophomore year in college and I know if I just fucked her my entire life would look like this, right? He create a revisionist history that if that had been different, his entire life would be different. Ignoring the fact that he has a ruminating brain, and he would have actually, even if he'd fucktard he'd still be ruminating about every missed opportunity and you know, passerby, another one well, there'll be many other things she would name so but we believe the revisionist history has to be true that they could be true, which actually makes us feel worse about ourselves. Because now all foggy by just done that I would now have the most amazing life. No, you would still have the same stock ruminating. Why? Because you're a ruminator. Right? Yeah. Okay. So that's going into the past roommate is also going into the future, still trying to gather sufficient information to not make the same mistakes. So what do you do when you ruminate about the future? You become a perfectionist? You think you have to figure everything out? In advance to take action so you don't take actions? You get stuck? You, you you you're constantly looking for how this might go wrong, how it might go south how the other shoe might fall. You rehearse conversations in your mind, you rehearse everything, so you get it right in the future. And do those rehearsals ever play out the way you thought they would in your head? Mind though, that's my biggest rumination patterns rehearsing, rehearsing conversations. Room inators also tend to compare themselves and measure themselves. Oh, that guy is so much further ahead than me now. Well, that guy's a douchebag and he has a pretty woman. How come I don't you know, oh, by this age, I should have accomplished this or you know, all of it is just rumination with the guys that is gathering important information. All this really doing is making you feel bad about yourself, usually keeping you socially isolated. And keeping you stuck. That's all rumination does now and looking at it for a number of years and studying it. I also believe that for a lot of people that rumination is part of their inherited temperament. They usually don't have to look too far in the family tree to see one or more family members that had depressive tendencies, addictive tendencies, control tendencies, rigid religion, tendencies, and ability to be in relationship. Be faithful. They usually don't look forward to find a good friend of mine was was sharing with he's a recovering addict. And he's shared with me his suicidal ideation. His mother committed suicide when he was a teenager and his dad's brother committed suicide. He's got this kind of rumination, suicidal ideation pattern coming from both sides of the family tree. Anyway, accident that you know, he says I can go curl up in my bed for days at a time and my ruminating brain just he calls it the assassin. He just beats the shit out of him. And he's a good looking guy successful. He's talented. He has a great life. He has great kids, but his mind could convince him. He's a total fucked up loser. That's his mind. Right? That's a pattern of mind. Now, trauma can do the same thing. PTSD can be a form of this trauma that we start, we become hypersensitive to certain things because it causes great pain in the past. So we can ruminate that well, so if you inherit the tendency towards rumination, and because your parents might have been ruminating and put you in situations that increase the likelihood of you having trauma, you got a double dose of it. So

Michael 48:34
So what do you do? What do you do?

Dr. Glover 48:38
Take away that what what I do is I tell folks I begin with you may never get rid of this. So let's let's stop trying to get rid of it. It may be a companion for the rest of your life. And it because trying to get rid of it just puts us in a deeper state of rumination. How can I get rid of this? So what I do teach people is I give them a lot of mindfulness practices and a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy practices to slow the thinking to redirect thinking to be the watcher and observer the main my mantra throughout. The ruminating brain course, is a we're going to practice being the notice or the observer not the believer of our thoughts. Whether you have a ruminating brain or not our minds, our thoughts lie to us all the freaking time. All the time. We just because we hear it all the time. We think it must be true, right? That's why we're most of us are so susceptible to the echo chamber of social media. You hear something enough times, it has to be true, especially social media is set up with, with algorithms to keep giving you the same thing you've already looked at. That's what our minds do. They keep rehearsing what feels familiar. I've heard that neurologist say we have about 1000 thought impulses every second. That's a lot of thought impulses, but we don't notice them. But the thing is we act we can actually with practice and awareness and consciousness, start attuning ourselves to those 1000 impulses now to actually take in 1000 a second would make us schizophrenic. So it's not a good plan. But we can start noticing what are the prominent ones that that we've learned to attune ourselves to? Because they've been there the longest, like as I'm so bad, nice guy. You probably started the internal negative thought talk at a really early age. So you've been hearing it for a long time. And you're anything you hear for a long time, we assume must be true, right? So your mind just keeps believing it's true. So what I try to help people do it with ruminating brain. This is an analogy one of one of my course members gave me one one time that I really loved. He said if I you know I'm inside the washing machine being spun by the washing machine. He said if I can step outside the washing machine, I can still watch the spinning. I just don't have to be spun by it. But when you're inside it being spun, you don't realize that there's a way out. You don't realize that the spinning is just part of them. It's just what your brains doing. Right? Your brain is doing that thing. But when you can step out and be the notice or the observer, the witness, the non believer of it, especially the assignment that I give every person who takes my course and I tell them this course is powerful. It can it can change your life in amazing ways I think is as much of a breakthrough awareness as reading no more Mr. Nice Guy is for a lot of guys, that people go for dazzle me I've got a room and a brain. I'm not fucked up. My brain just keeps telling me that I am right. That's it. That's actually a big breakthrough. So how do we learn to be the witness of it? I tell people you have to get a notebook and you have to start writing down what are your rumination patterns? Because if you don't write them down, you've been you've been caught up in them for so long. They just they're just normal thought. Right? But what if I write down I've got to ruminate and give them give them a name, my rumination pattern rehearsing conversations. Now whenever I noticed my Hills self rehearsing a conversation usually because I'm stressed or anxious about something or want, I want things to turn out a certain way. I notice it because I know that's a rumination pattern. I have you know if you again gotta write these down and in most of us will have a dozen or more rumination patterns. And the longer you keep the notebook the more you notice the subtleties of each of the ruminating pattern. So now because I know I ruminating pattern of rehearsing conversations as soon as my mind starts doing it, I notice it and I can say wait, stop. And then I asked myself a couple of questions. Am I going to have this conversation? If the answer is no, or go back and stop the conversation, stop rehearsing it. We don't need to rehearse a conversation we're not going to help. The brain is just has some illusion of control or some release by rehearsing a conversation I'm never going to have okay, but it's an illusion. We're not gonna have a conversation. It's just mental masturbation. Okay, if I say yes, I am going to have the conversation. Okay. When I make myself commit to when I got and you know, I usually if it's at all possible, we'll make myself do it within 24 hours. I will have the conversation when I see the person tomorrow. I'm gonna get on the phone and have a conversation right now. I'm gonna send them a message and say, Can we talk? Here's what I'm going to do to have the conversation, right, so I could put a plan of action in there. If I'm going to have then I asked myself the question, when I have the conversation, am I going to tell the whole truth, nothing but the truth? And I go, Yeah, that's the only way to have a beneficial conversation. Then then I'll say, then stop fucking rehearsing the conversation, because the truth doesn't need rehearsal. Just talk to the person and tell them the truth, whatever my truth is, that's my pattern for how I start. And the good news is we can start treating our ruminations as those kind of big sticks the Wake Up Calls like like the addicts, I'm a great forward. Okay, I know what my ruminations are. Now, when I start ruminating. I can ask myself those questions. I can go kind of through a cognitive behavioral thing. I can do something I call an obsessive appointment, which is more kind of a mindfulness meditative state, where I'll just set my timer for eight minutes, and I'll go consciously obsess about everything I've been unconsciously obsessing about. timer goes off at three minutes. I'm done thinking about it. I cannot think about that thing until my next obsessive point. I need to plan one in 15 minutes or later today or tomorrow, but then I start telling myself No, I will only obsess about this inside a plan to obsessive point. And so you start taking some leadership and some discipline of your mind. So and these are just just a couple of the techniques, writing them down, observing them having a conversation with yourself, doing an obsessive appointment, having a conversation with a friend, I mean, there's

Michael 55:17
just get it out, right? Breathe Calm

Dr. Glover 55:20
yourself, you know and ask yourself why in this moment, am I obsessed about this thing? Well, maybe you know in an Alcoholics Anonymous, they talk about halt, hungry, angry, lonely, tired. Most of the time we slip into our worst mental habits, emotional habits and behavioral habits. When we're not doing well, when we're hungry, angry, lonely, tired, whatever. If we can use these things to check in what am I feeling right now? Well, actually, I'm kind of anxious or actually, I've been pissed off for a while, right? Actually, I didn't need anything this morning. We then can start taking the actions that help us be at our best so we can we can use these rumination patterns as that big stick the wake up if we've learned to pay attention to what they are, and not just get caught up in believing them as soon as they start spinning. And I am convinced. If you catch a rumination before it's third loop around your head, you can intervene you can intervene in it. Once it gets to the third loop is now just it's just background thought that just runs day and night.

Michael 56:25
So I think it's safe to say you can't solve shit without some action right because I think guys just right I think guys it's expected Well, if if you could just tell me you know, the magic formula stop overthinking or stop ruminating or stopped obsessing about her well you got to put in some fucking work in a like you said you got to determine how you're get good at catching those thoughts being conscious of them. Being mindful when I say mindful I always imagine like some monk on a fucking mountain like, oh, but that's not fucking mindful. Right. And but I think this is a very foreign concept to a lot of guys. They don't they don't observe their thoughts. They're not mindful. I'm not I'm not knocking them. They weren't taught. We weren't

Dr. Glover 57:06
taught. None of us were taught you know what? I taught a lesson on love on I have a new membership program. And on this last Thursday on our brotherhood called the full call. I taught you know this 20 minute lesson on love. And and you know, with three key points to it, we look for love and all the wrong places we look for love outside of us. We our love, love is within us. Self Care. loving ourselves is the ultimate expression. So anyway, I gave his lesson and it is to me it was a very powerful poignant lesson. And I got some emails this morning some messages actually from from a guy I know. He's he lives in Ireland. He's an orthodontist, and he you know he's, he's, he's, we've had some conversations and he's really supportive. of the work I do. And he said, Robert, that message about love was so profound. And he said why do not why do school systems, not teach children how to love themselves, and how to love and be loved and love? So yeah, these basic life skills What do you do with the ruminating brain? Of course, that doesn't get taught in school. You know, how do you have healthy relationships? No, it doesn't get taught in school but but all that's taught in school now is gender does not exist. There's as many genders as our people on the planet. So you know, there now all of a sudden, kids are more confused. I don't know what I am, my boy, my girl. You don't have to guess. So you know, whatever is being taught in schools. Doesn't seem to be all that helpful. Right now. So yes, learning appropriate action. Based on the situation of course is powerful because most of us are ruminating brains. I found that ruminating brain tends to go hand in hand with ADD ADHD, and addictions. So most people ruminating brains guess what they do? They medicate a lot. They tend to drink her to calm the voices. They smoke a lot. of pots so they can go to sleep at night and calm the voice down. That's the actions we're taking rather than saying, Okay, your brain may always have these thought impulses. How do you tune to different ones or not believe the ones that are there? And it does take some practice it does take some action just just telling someone quit thinking about her. Thinking about the bitch doesn't work. But for example, if I was working with somebody depend on you know, the person's obsessive connection with say a woman from their past. You know, if they're obsessed about some woman who can't get over her, yeah, like you said some therapy can be really helpful, because usually the women that we get obsessed with are often because we got into some kind of what was what I call a trauma bonded or drama bonded relationship. That was a recreation of a basic issue. From our earliest experience in life. Oh, I'm thinking oh, I'll never get another one like this. She's so great. She's so amazing. But you know, she she has no ability to manage her emotions. She can't be available. She's unfaithful, but oh man, and she sure is hot. I sure have a great time when we fought. You know, we get caught up and that will walk not because she's hot because she's a great fuck when she does get around to fucking you is because somehow it fills some familiar or empty place from from your childhood life experience. So yeah, doing some therapy can can be helpful. One of the things that I do with guys that put their ex up on a pedestal that she was so fucking amazing. I said, write down all of her bad traits write down all of the terrible thing she did in a relationship. Well, and usually that list is actually really long. Fuck it is but But some men are so good at just tuning all that out because but she was fucking hot and she was fucking good. Yeah, you know, crazy in the head crazy in the bed that you know, and but we got addicted to that and now every other woman seems boring and came and go and uninteresting because they don't activate that drama bond a trauma bonded relationship. So one of the things we can do to start breaking trauma bonded drama bonded relationships, is to focus actually on all their terrible traits. Now again, I don't give that assignment to everybody. There's some guys that are obsessed about their exes. She was such a fucking bitch. She destroyed my life he was so terrible. She took me to the cleaners. She lied in court. She took my kids she poisoned them. I don't have a relationship anymore. I'm broke now, you know, and they're caught up and what a terrible fucking bitch. She was. That's what I do with those guys. I don't have them make a list of all her bad traits.

Michael 1:01:46
That's probably smart. Yeah.

Dr. Glover 1:01:48
What I do is I have them start a daily gratitude practice of thankfulness for every gift, that woman in that relationship gave to him.

Michael 1:01:59
That's powerful shit there. I gotta tell you I've done that. I appreciate that so much because I think I want to cover one more topic then I'm gonna get some questions but I think a lot of I think the guy that is sad and depressed and lonely he can be helped and he can be fixed so can the other one but I think they're more willing because they're sort of desperate that angry pissed off, dude. Yeah, he is harder to reach. He is damn near impossible to reach because

Dr. Glover 1:02:27
to be pissed off, there's a lot of emotional reinforcement.

Michael 1:02:31
It's comfort it's its protection. There's anger as a fucking cage. I don't care what anybody says. It can be a good fuel and you can use it as such. But most men it becomes a fucking cage where that you can't get them out. of it then they're not going to want to get out of it and there's going to be no change in their life and all they're going to focus on is the negative in the in the in the comfort in being able to point a finger and say it's not my fault that fucking bitch and it's hypergamy and by the way, that's bullshit that

Dr. Glover 1:02:59
I don't get me going on. I forgive me, I

Michael 1:03:02
think and that's why I had Shan Shan and I had that conversation. I think it's horseshit. I think that whole rational male can go for it. So Shan

Dr. Glover 1:03:10
Shan and I have had that conversation. I met Shawn at a red pill conference. You and I were both speakers. There. Rollo Tomassi was on the same program with us. That's where I met Sean and it likes it. We like we fell in love instantly.

Michael 1:03:24
He's a great guy. I think he's been he's been excommunicated from the web. I'm not a red pill guy. I think red pill. I think

Dr. Glover 1:03:32
I'm not either. I without going down that rabbit hole. Yes. Does it does there's a lot of stuff I don't disagree with sure there's some value in some of it. What I don't agree with is the us against them. Well, I don't like that the women are out to get us so we got to we got to fuck them before they can fuck us. I don't and I don't like the hierarchical system they create for men. Okay, we got red pill, you know we're Red Pill the blue pills. charcoal and black. I just don't like that classified men and most of the you know, I'm not actually met all that many true red pill guys. I've met a lot of guys who sit around and type on online forums while sitting in their mother's basement on Friday night you know about you know all the all the red pill philosophy. But yeah, without without going after that.

Michael 1:04:22
Yeah,

Dr. Glover 1:04:23
I gotcha. stay angry. Dad. I'm with you like, again. Well, we took a bunch of red pill you know, in sells MIG tau men going their own way. Most of that is fueled by anger and resentment and I'm a victim I've been done to you. So let me throw this out. feeling victimized now we can be a victim. We can be victimized without being a victim. Amen. We can have shit happen to us without that tape without us taking that on and defining our life. So here's a piece this could be a whole nother whole nother podcast. been staying in a victim state is a feminine place to be it's not a masculine state masculine does feminine has done too. I'm talking about men and women I'm talking about Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. So the masculine in US goes and get shit done. It takes action. The feminine in US feels done to another feminine is could also be done to in ways that feel blissful. Oh man. I feel good. You know, getting getting a good blow job is you're in your feminine you're receiving you're being done to do it. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Right. And believe it or not, most men I work with have a hard time receiving even that you know is we have to learn I had to learn how to receive so but feeling victimized basically hanging on to that victim status is feminine in nature. Now all these you know guys feeling victimized by women are going out gonna be the alpha I'm gonna go no, actually you're still in the one down beta position because you're in the feminine position of feeling victimized feeling victimized as you said. It just It helps us Suze. You know Signet truth is shit happens in life. Yeah, I

Michael 1:06:07
mean, it's not fair. You are a victim if you've been lied to if you've been cheated on it's been left in some ways you have you have been victimized like you said I love that phrase. You can be victimized not be evict not be a victim. Yeah, that's all that's a mate. I'd never heard it that way. But that's I say something very similar not quite as elegant. It's like you can you are a victim if you've been lied to cheated on left you're ugly. But if you stay a victim you're not

Dr. Glover 1:06:29
you're not going to you're not done you move forward victimizing yourself. 100%

Michael 1:06:33
agree. Yeah. So so for those those guys that are focused on it, it's something that popped in my head too. It's like the power of pussy like a lot of guys. I mean, I look at all the betters i mean, i Who doesn't love it? I mean, I guess if you have a different persuasion or whatever do do your own thing, but But why a man or I don't want to own an asset. I want to ask why or a lot of times what

Dr. Glover 1:07:02
you try to try to say how do I ask this in a way that you know, doesn't give me too big of trouble, right?

Michael 1:07:07
Oh, no, I don't give a shit about that. I mean, I'm not I'm not that I'm not famous enough to get in trouble yet. Hopefully someday, maybe. I don't know.

Dr. Glover 1:07:14
You know, you've arrived when you start getting intact.

Michael 1:07:17
Oh, well, that does happen. But it's not it's not quite to the level I'm sure some of the some of you guys and Shawn and different folks get but why is it that? So the general advice is wait one year before dating and there are men in here and there are questions I'm going to get to here in a few minutes. I don't want to keep you forever but this has been awesome and I'm really enjoying it. But why what what is what is your I know everyone's different. But I think there's nothing wrong with waiting a year but I don't even know if a year sometimes is is is adequate. If it was a really traumatic thing and you've learned nothing during that year then you might as well you're spinning your fucking wheels and you're you're starting from scratch but I guess one is how long or wait maybe it's better to ask when instead of how long does that's arbitrary I think a little bit when When is it okay for men to start dipping their toe back into that pool? And why is it that that is like almost that because I did it two or three weeks after she left us put my dick and somebody else but why is it that as soon as we get left we're looking for another woman to sue their wounds. And and and in how do we how do we stop that answer? How do we focus on something else?

Dr. Glover 1:08:32
How do I answer but it's not amount of time, but I do have an answer. Um we're gonna dive a little bit more than the masculine feminine. The feminine in all people is the part that craves connection and the flow of love. We all have a feminine side man or the remainder when we all have a feminine side that craves connection flow of love is part of being human. We all have a masculine side that doesn't give a fuck about connection and flow of love. The masculine is just about masterfully doing whatever needs to be done. Right just masterfully do that and go rest in consciousness. So what happens is kind of going back to my lesson on love I told you I taught the other day. Our culture has taught us to look for love in all the wrong places and two of the worst places to look for love and we need love, right? There's a part of us that needs love. But the feminine in us is I say it's an empty bucket with a hole in the bottom that has to be filled externally. So the feminine is always looking for love looking to be filled, but it runs out the bottom. That's That's why this feminine demand. That's why the feminine has never enough for the feminine, because even if it's slowing in right now we could quit it anytime and I have no control over it. That's the vulnerability of the feminine part of ourselves and of course and women okay? It's why so many women actually become so masculine and so controlling, because it feels really vulnerable to be in that dependent feminine place that you have to be filled externally. Okay. So one of the things we're taught by getting love is you go find it outside of you. Okay, but how's that working so far? You know, okay, I'm gonna find this person to love me. I'm going to find love out here. I'm gonna find love out here. Searching for love outside yourself never does accomplish what you're trying to accomplish. We are loved we are the source of love. Now we all I believe our basic three human needs are to to love to be loved, and to feel lovable. And maybe the all the thrills overlap if you talk to most men, and if men just kind of get real you say would you rather love somebody or be loved? Most men said I'd rather love and that's one reason why I think most wife many men are so hurt and wounded. I loved her. I gave her my love. I didn't get get any back. I didn't get it back in the way that I should have. And is probably true because the and here's the other mistake. The feminine is not the source of love. The feminine is the consumer of love. So the other mistake we men make is going to feminine creatures. Seeking to get our own feminine bucket filled there already a bigger empty bucket with a bigger hole in the bottom than us and they're looking to be filled. So when we go to feminine creatures with this empty neediness which we all have, and say love me fill me be you know, they're gonna fucking is repulsive to me. That turns me off. They push it away. I mean, Mark Manson's book models basically talked about you know, it's a dating book and it said that you neediness is the most repulsive thing to win because we're in an empty bucket place and come to my empty bucket, which means they gotta go into their masculine I've been saying for some time now that the masculine in all people is the source of love, not the feminine, the feminine is that consumer, the seeker of love. If you go back, I highly recommend your guys read the road less traveled by M. Scott Peck. I haven't read it in few years, but I probably read it multiple times years ago. It's the all time best selling self help book, The Road Less Traveled. His definition of love is basically this the intention and action to act in one's own or another's best interests. You can google Scott pecks definition of love is brilliant, but it involves intention and action. Those are masculine traits. Those are not feminine traits. The masculine does it has intention and takes action. The feminine is done to buy the masculine. Okay, so we've been lied to for centuries. Through music through culture through movies through glorifying mothers, oh, everything about feminine His love, but if you even think about a mother, most of what a mother does with her child or infant or child is masculine because it's doing you got to feed them, you got to clean them, you got to bathe you got to protect them. You got to put them to bed you got to make sure they get their homework done. You got to make sure that they go to the doctor. Yeah, it's all masculine. The only real feminine act between a mother and a child it may be the just holding the baby to rest and looking into his eyes and there's a flow of love everything else is masculine. That's why so many mothers are so disappointed and angry and bitter about being mothers. They got lied to. I was gonna get loved by this child. No fuck, I have to love it all the time. Right? So if we go looking to feminine creatures for our source of love to fill our bucket, we're gonna keep getting hurt and wounded and be resentful and angry over and over and over again. It's not what they do right now. So what are our options? I think there are twofold. One is our masculine can husband and nurture our own feminine side. We can be consciously taking the time to nurture ourselves. Now that can take a lot of different forms getting enough sleep, going to the dentist connecting with people. This morning, my my wife and my stepkids went to Guadalajara this weekend. I live in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico, so she went to visit family I'm here by myself. So this morning I get up I've got my cup of coffee, my Pitbull knowledge by my side just you know she just love and being here with Papa and I'm just enjoying my morning enjoying the moment just being nurturing myself. I'll take a nap sometime today. I'll nurture myself I'll leave. I'll eat well, today I'll nurture myself again and an exercise today it's more of a masculine nurturing, but I'll nurture myself. I'll talk to some friends today. I already have talked to some friends today. I'll nurture myself I'll feel nurtured from having this conversation with you. I will consciously be husbanding my own feminine. I'll be filling my own empty bucket consistently enough because it's flown out the bottom right? I will my masculine will nurture my feminine does as you know any any gratitude practice you do any just resting in nothingness walking in the park, sitting in nature, listening to good music, having really enjoying a nice glass of wine, good conversation, good meal. All of that is nurturing Okay, I'll brush and floss my teeth a couple of times today. That's nurturing to me. It says it says I'm valuable. I'm lovable. That's number one. Our own masculine can nurture our own feminine. Number two, spend time with men. Spend time with people that have the strong masculine side. I've found when I stay connected with men, I feel much more loved and much more filled. I have I go spend a bunch of time with a group of women. I'm not going to walk away from that feeling loved and nurtured until I'm gonna walk away want to put you know, I picked my ears you know fuck drive me crazy, you know? But if I go spend time with men, that's why I'm in a men's program. I have several my own men connection groups. I'm on signal all day long connected with men. I run men's programs. I do interviews with men my life is teeming with men.

Dr. Glover 1:16:32
And I always feel looked when I'm with men. I go get around women. I'm trying to figure out how to get them to love me and value me or I'm loving them right now. One mistake nice guys often make is we often go give all of our love to some female creature at some empty bucket outside of us. Our own inner bitch goes What the fuck asshole? How come you give her so much and you totally neglect me. You think a little resentment builds up inside there that our own inner feminine is pissed off because we're just given all these goodies, all of our attention all of our money the BMW you know this that yet we're giving it all to that other you know, empty bucket on our own empty buckets going? What? I don't exist, you know, I'm I'm bread crumbs. I don't matter, you know. So number one. Quit looking for love. Outside of you to quit looking for love from feminine oriented creatures, right? Number three, husband your own feminine, your own masculine husband in your own feminine side. Number four spend as much time as possible with with people, men or women who are in their masculine and therefore a place to give love my wife, you know, like like, most women are attractive. Is has a very strong masculine side most women do. Now masculine remember, love is is expressed through action. I'll be sitting here like doing an interview like this or online working and my wife will kind of sneak in my office here and put a glass of coconut water on my desk and sneak back out again. That's fuckin love. Now it's coming from a feminine person, but it's a it's an act. So masculine act, it's a doing act as Oh my My wife and many women out there are very loving, but they show it in masculine ways. Not the ways that we men tend to think is going to come. You don't feel loved just because you loved a person. You don't feel loved just because you want their approval. And their validation or even their sex. That isn't what makes you go away feeling loved. You go away feeling loved when they treated you acted in a way that that you walked away said that felt loving. They didn't have to say they loved me. I knew they loved me through their actions.

Michael 1:18:53
We could spend a whole fuckin podcast

Dr. Glover 1:18:55
I knew we could believe me I I've been working on this ship for a long enough time. I know what it opens up.

Michael 1:19:04
Well, it's fascinating. I think it does big a question you know if I'm a bitter I don't know if how far I want to go down this route. But if I have a bitter man, what am I here is what the fuck do I need women for?

Dr. Glover 1:19:14
Well, if you're a better man, you're in your what I call your lower feminine. You're dwelling in that I've been done to right I'm a victim. And then a guy asked me a question on one of my membership calls the other day. I we have time for q&a. And we get down where I go okay, two minute drill. I'm gonna take two two minute timers on you have to ask and I gotta answer in two minutes. Okay. And this one guy that and I love this guy. He asked me the best questions he's he's he's on the spectrum. So his questions are like, you know, there's just as he said, Robert if you could take your wisdom that you have now, put it in your teenage body. What would you do? How would you be different? I fucking love that question. And I said, and I thought, I gotta answer it with the first thought that came up. I can't, I can't massage it and then get shut up and the first thought that came up was I spend less time with women. I spend less time pursuing women trying to get women to like me approve of me trying to get them upset with me. I don't know if I like being married. So I might still get married but I probably get married in different ways and I've gotten married. I'm making married and I live with a woman. I would just spend less time with women. Now that's not a MIG tau. You know, I don't need women. They're terrible. You know, people are amazing. You know, gender doesn't matter people. People are amazing, and people can be terrible. Sure, you know, I think I'm just going to choose to be with the amazing people and not the terrible people and not worry about their gender. Okay, so if we get focused on all women are terrible. You know, for me, it's actually a nice relief and I think for a lot of men does go listen, let's just assume she's an empty bucket with a hole in the bottom and she's just trying to get filled. That's all that's not a terrible thing. We have an empty bucket with a hole in the bottom is trying to be filled. Now a lot of people take that as being kind of misogynistic and say, well, the feminine is an empty bucket. I'm not saying it mean, does that sound mean? It just sounds like okay, there's part of us it needs to be filled. Right? That's just you know, anybody that does, you know, inner child work or you know, it is this kind of work. It's about taking care of that needy part of you, right, so we have a needy part. So this is not about I would never have anything to do with women would I spend less time pursuing from women what they can't give

Michael 1:21:40
me what you what your what you what you thought they could give you what you expected I can give

Dr. Glover 1:21:44
what I was trained and you know, brainwashed and we all have we've all been raised to believe it. Women even believe this stuff. Yeah, I mean, you know, look at how many how many women now are kind of, you know, going their own way. And just you know, you know, at early age, not even hanging with men just you know, I'm just gonna go I have relationships with women. They also believe that same myth, but feminine or lesbian relationships. I'm gonna say something that this might get me in trouble, have a higher incidence of domestic violence per capita than straight relationships are gay relationships, gay actually had the least incident of domestic violence. So now you got two women together both going you should fill me you should fill me I'm an empty bucket, and now they're pissed off. Both of them are pissed off because you're not filling me you're not filling me in. So again, I'm making a pretty big generalization and making a gender with you know, dynamics. But the point is, this is not an indictment of women. Is just okay. All of us have a part of us that is seeking love. And connection. All of us have a part of us that gets the most joy out of giving love. Let's be realistic about what those parts are and where we're most likely to get them.

Michael 1:23:01
But I mean, it's there's so much to this, you know on this topic, and I think the good thing is that, you know, we're looking at it, we're questioning we're trying to figure out some of these answers. I wish I had all of them. I don't think anyone does, but

Dr. Glover 1:23:17
that's our ruminating brain going if I just had all the answers, everything would work. I got shitloads of answers. But that doesn't mean I apply them all to my life or life even goes away. I think it should,

Michael 1:23:29
brother I can be preaching to the choir here. So I want to I want to get to some questions that some guys asked. And we kind of covered some of them. So I might just skip it. This one he's asking is it generally accepted dimensioned way to year after separation? Well,

Dr. Glover 1:23:43
let me just throw that piece out. Because, you know, I actually made a lot of rules for myself when I started dating, but the rules were just to keep me more conscious, too, because, you know, I'll even go back to you know, Shawn's new book gatekeeper and he says what I've been saying for years, is that most of our relationship dynamics, it occur at such an unconscious level, that we don't know that we're out there, fusing with a woman trying to lock it down, making sure she loves us, and she's available to us, because we're trying to deal with something that she can't actually do for us. And then in that needy place, we actually probably end up driving her away, right? We do all of that really unconscious. So I as I became aware of my unconscious patterns, I made rules up to go with them like I stayed off the phone with women early on, because I found that talking with women on the phone amps up a relationship and basically gives the woman what she wants while the guy you know, just getting I mean, what what do we get as guys by talking on the phone to a woman? Yeah, even if we have some phone sex. It's still just fucking phone sex. She's actually not really doing anything, do us. All right. So I had to make rules to help guide me now. When I got out of my second marriage. I didn't want to date I really done a lot of heavy lifting. I actually started going to a 12 step group, and I said, I'm gonna be pissed off for as long as it takes to be pissed off. I said, if it takes two years being pissed off, I'm going to be pissed off for two years. I let myself be pissed off. That's okay. But I also knew there was an endpoint to it. And and yeah, you know, when I think about dating ago, I don't even fucking want to listen to a woman talk. It just seems burdening to me. So I didn't date for several months, not quite a year, but for several I focused on my book just come out. I focused on me, building my business doing things. I focused on building more of a social life, so I didn't have any luxury. So I focused on taking good care of me. So I would say rather than setting the time, make it a focus that you go out and take care of you work on your male relationships. I in marriage therapy, I always told couples, the best thing you can do for your marriage have good same sex friends. So most men when they get out of relationship, they've lost all their buddies. Go work at building male relationships, get into a men's group, get into some kind of men's programs. Go rekindle your old friendships that you let go. Go connect with men, because what I found is when we're getting our significant number of needs met with men, the appeal of women tends to go down. And even the neediness for sex tends to go down. I found men who are the most needy for sex, are using the men who are not getting the rest of their needs met in a very predictable consistent way. So focus on your basic core needs, connect with men and I think you'll find it a lot of the neediness you have towards women wanting to fuse quickly getting dependent on them, you know, you know getting needy around sex with them. It actually diminishes, the more you're getting your needs in general. So as odd as it sounds, the more regularly you floss your teeth, the less you're going to feel needy for sex.

Michael 1:27:07
Tested. No, I don't disagree. I think you got to focus on yourself. I mean, that's, I think usually this question is under the guise of, hey, it's only been two months, but I'm pretty sure I'm ready. No, dude, you're fucking not ready. So

Dr. Glover 1:27:21
I tell you, here's where men most men start this as soon as they feel like they might be done with the relationship. They go on the online apps and start looking what's out there. Oh, yeah. And again, that's because we're dependent on the feminine for love and connection and validation, which is our feminine. So what instead of going on the online apps, and start looking at what's out there, and of course, you know, Are they young? Are they cute? Are they attractive? Are they sexy? That's the only reason to look for a woman on an online app is finding the women that we don't think we could get in real life. And we start testing that, and I can't tell you how many marriages have blown up, because the woman caught the guy on dating apps while they're still fucking married and living together. As he was testing for. Should I leave her I need to know for sure there's something else I could jump to that looks better than what I've had for the last five years. 10 years. 15 years. Validation. Yeah. So how long should you take? Maybe when you get over needing women for a sense of validation and okayness and when you've taken back the keys that they control your sexuality

Michael 1:28:37
How can a man alright so this one This one comes from I'm not gonna say his name but he's he's someone that I you know, I deal with an internet have interacted with on a regular basis. This is I'll call him Rs. So I'll read the whole thing. As a guy that's a year and four months separated. I know my marriage ending is the best thing to happen to me and ultimately, my son. However, I still have days where I question my self worth, not only as a man, but as a father. I guess my question would be How could someone in my position go get over that mental block when you feel such like such a failure? Okay,

Dr. Glover 1:29:12
I again wish there was an easy answer to that probably will go back to your default answer. Get some therapy. One of the to me, you know, no more Mr. Nice Guy I stress early on and often and I've been stressing it for 25 years now. To break these patterns, you need safe people. You need to go and be with safe people and reveal your toxic shame. To let the shame come up. Let it be out, be heard and get more accurate

Michael 1:29:42
views of who you really are. So as far as I hope, I want to plug my poetic statement. Shame does not survive sunlight. The more you talk about it, the less it kills it. And when

Dr. Glover 1:29:53
we're safe people with the intention of letting it go. Not wallowing in it wallowing in it because having a you know it again it there can be emotional payoffs for staying in shame victim place. But I'll give you a just quick example. A guy came to one of my workshops has been a few years ago, and I'd actually been working with him individually over the internet at that time. And he was in a relationship with a woman who just treated him like shit. Why? Because he had a lot of toxic shame. You thought? Yeah, why? Why? Why should I expect anything different? He came to the workshop. African American, tall, good look and this guy could get any woman he wanted. But during the workshop, but but he always also felt intimidating and didn't want to scare people because he was a big tall African American. So during the workshop, he started talking about how terrible he was, you know, just Seamus, can you like give us an example? of why you feel like you're such a terrible human being. And he started crying. And he goes when I was like, teenagers 15 I stole a car stereo out of a car. And you know, the whole group of guys is sitting there looking at him. He's crying. We're going to finally somebody says, That's it. That's all you did. And you think you're terrible. Yeah. And then the whole group of guys starts sharing every stupid thing. They did it. And the guy felt held and loved and not alone and not a terrible and that one moment of sharing what he had. Of course, he had shame from other things, but that was kind of a defining proof of how bad he was releasing that piece of shame and other guys saying, You're not terrible. I listened to what I did. That's terrible. Right to hear that. The guy got out of that relationship. A few months later, start dating a therapist who thought he was fucking amazing and treated him like gold. And I mean, I haven't heard from him in a few years but last I heard him loving life loving his relationship loving because he went and found safe people and release the shame and got more accurate messages about himself. So it whatever your brains ruminating about that you're terrible. You're a fuckup but go find safe people release it and then start doing that work around your ruminating brain where you keep revisiting the same perceived fuck ups over and over again. The more you do it, they say in in neurology neurons that fire together wire together. The more you think something or do something, the more it feels normal and true. So the more you get more you think about your past fuck ups and how terrible you are, the more believable it seems because you've gotten neural pathways that feel really familiar to

Michael 1:32:46
right and again, it goes back to you got to do some work, you got to put in the work. It's not it's not easy. It's not easy to break that pattern or habit or to kill that shame, but it's possible it is possible so we'll call him Edie. Edie says how do you separate feelings of not trying to hurt your ex hurt your ex financially, but still protect yourself and getting back with yours? Not? Well, I guess we

Dr. Glover 1:33:13
all every guy asked that question. Well, not not it, the more nice person is the more you don't want to be an asshole, but you don't want you don't wanna get taken to the cleaners. Okay, so here, here's the deal. A couple of things. I think probably everybody listening already knows what I'm about to say. Number one, when women go through divorce their math skills go to hell 50 5050 takes on really weird proportions. Right? So I so guys will tell me Well, you know, I don't I don't want to go through divorce because I'll lose half of everything I own. And I go no, let me correct you. You're gonna lose 70% or more of everything you own. But right now if you're married to her, she has 100% of everything you own, and no judge is going to tell her to quit spending money or running up your debt. You get us file for separation file for divorce. Now you that's under control. A judge will say you can't spend his money anymore. Okay. So and the courts do tend to give are very you know, generous with women, especially when there's children involved and and how they came up with a system every state does is that says the more money a man makes, the more money his children need to live on. Yeah, wow. That's not logical. You know, if one man makes, you know, 50,000 a year, and the formula says his kids need this much. Why does a man who makes 100,000 a year Why is the formula say his kids need that much? Well, that extra amount of money doesn't go to the kids. It goes to the mall, right? We all know that. But that's the way the courts work. So yes, it's going to cost us and they say Why is divorce so expensive? Because it's worth it? is worth it. You get control of your life back. Okay, now what I tell them is I tell them be generous. Without selling don't get I mean men when they get caught up I'm gonna try to hide this from her. No, don't do that. Don't fucking hide anything. Well, I'm trying to manage this. Know that I found the more that men try to manage the financial damage, the more the financial damage amps up because the woman senses that, that he's trying to fuck her screw her. Or if the guy just says I'm willing to give this much not more. I'm willing to take care of I'm willing for you. I want you to be okay. But I'm not giving more than this. Just that no like training. The more time and energy a man spends conniving, of how to try to control the more it's going to cost him to get divorced. I've seen it happen over and over and over again. Be generous, be caring, but don't give away the farm. Now statistics show in general. The first five years after divorce, the woman does better than the man financially. After five years, the man rapidly speeds past the woman if he doesn't go get involved with another woman. That that takes him to the claim

Michael 1:36:18
or at the accident Britney Spears or Kelly Clarkson because, you know, I think that the the formulas are fucked, but they're skewed towards a higher earner, whoever that may be. Typically obviously it's

Dr. Glover 1:36:31
and you know, bless the courts. Britney, the judge actually took Britney Spears kids away from her and gave him to a rapper so they actually did give you know the kids to the person in there. Yeah.

Michael 1:36:44
Oh, but she's paying through the fucking nose I'm sure of it, which is good, bad or indifferent. I don't I don't know that. I don't know who determines these formulas or who made the decision or what state legislatures do? Yeah, and it's you know, but But based on what like try and find out I'm in Pennsylvania try and find out that formula I mean, you can go on there's a calculator but the nuts and bolts of it and I'm sure maybe it exists somewhere like 22% over what the fuck ever it is but

Dr. Glover 1:37:08
then they do every state has a written up and talk to any attorney. They can tell you what Yeah,

Michael 1:37:12
who made that? I mean, okay, the state legislatures, but based on what the what are the base and on

Dr. Glover 1:37:18
precedents of the court in past cases. Court if the courts keep leaning in one direction, that becomes law, even if it's actually not codified in law, court precedents becomes law.

Michael 1:37:31
And so what what was it what was the percentage that someone just someone still had to make a decision and say, well, it's 22% of your income or whatever it is, like I it's our it seemed it's not arbitrary, but it seems arbitrary. I mean, it becomes locked in

Dr. Glover 1:37:43
just accepted as arbitrary. Yeah. Well, to question that anymore. I mean, understand, it's arbitrary.

Michael 1:37:51
Yeah, I mean, it sucks. I don't I don't like it, but it is what it is. I mean, unless someone tells me exactly how to fix it, I just I get sort of tired of hearing about it because I pay a lot in child support, but fuck am I gonna do about it? Like, tell me how to fix it and then I'll make that my reason on death row. Until then, I'm going to try and save men's lives and make their lives better, but anyway.

Dr. Glover 1:38:10
Well, I'll give you one thought about that without going down that rabbit hole. When I went on my book tour for no more Mr. Nice Guy back in 2003. A lot I did a lot of interviews, TV, radio, newspaper, and a lot of times the interviewer said, Robert, do you see a worldwide men's movement coming? I said, No, I really don't think so. I don't think there's one unifying factor that would bring men together calling feminism. I now have actually changed my mind. I think men's seeking tribe and connection initiation is driving men to seek connections. Other men. Now it might be through a pickup bootcamp. It might be through martial arts. It might be through a 12 step program. It might be a divorce group in their church. It can be a lot of but men are seeking connection community. What I would say as I said, if there is one thing that might unify men and women might actually pitch in to help with it is bringing some sort of sanity to the child support craziness that is out there, at least in the US and state legislatures. Because for example, I don't know if you're in a relationship with another woman. Now. No, but when you are and she sees the X amount of money that flows out of you to another woman, that's not her as for your kids, but she will be pissed off about that. She will hate seeing all that money going out of your pocket into another one's pocket. Now that doesn't make her a bad person. I mean, it just is. So at some point, I do think there does have to be a movement of men and the women that support them in saying we need to bring legal sanity back to the divorce process, and child support payments, paying alimony and support to a woman who chose not to work for a number of years and the guy couldn't support them. And now the courts say the guy has to keep supporting the standard of living that she's grown accustomed to. Why is that law? Why? Because the guy was generous while he's married. Does he have to be keep being generous to a woman who wants to go fuck, you know, her personal trainer rather than him? Anyway, I won't go down that rabbit hole. But what I'm saying instead of us just kind of marinating in our anger. How about if men, smart men, men get connected? pool money, pool resources, create a movement, where we actually legally take on state legislatures and the court systems and the way that it's skewed towards women against men. The only thing that is going to change it is a movement of organized men. Now think about it. Laws are written by state legislatures, state legislatures are elected. They can be unelected and if men got behind a movement especially a national movement that started going after state legislation and say if you do not bring sanity, and we can create a model of what sanity looks like, right, what fair looks like and bring that to state legislatures. Now. Most state legislators whether Democrat Republican doesn't matter. They're spineless. They only care about getting reelected. Now the lack like their principal, but there's fires. But if this became a force of nature, that state legislatures and judges knew if they did not pay attention, they would pay a price. I think something good happened now that's going to take men getting organized, not just sitting around being pissed off, like you said, take action. It's got to be men taking action, rather than just moaning and groaning on online forums about how they got taken to the cleaners. Right.

Michael 1:41:55
Well, and that's my issue is what's the what's the solution? I hear an awful lot of bitching and complaining and whining okay, what fix it tell me I have said this many fucking times you tell me what the fix is and I'll get behind it. No one ever has an answer. Oh, we just need to make it fair. What the fuck does that mean? Tell me exactly why gave you an answer. No, you did. Yeah. No, what No,

Dr. Glover 1:42:15
you don't like my answer I gave you know what's

Michael 1:42:17
it how much should I pay in child support to kids?

Dr. Glover 1:42:20
No one's ever gonna be able to figure that out for you.

Michael 1:42:22
Well, but that is the question. We get the question. Most places in most places Child child custody. 50%. So so the fact that we say some folks say oh, it's skewed to women I don't think that's true. In West Virginia, at least one state that I'm aware of. It's 5050 by law. So I think we're sort of we're playing this victim mode because it makes us feel comfortable. I don't think I don't think that the courts screw screw men in general. Does it happen? Of course it happens. But again, as Britney Spears how much he pays in child support as Kelly Clarkson how much he pays in child support. We're perpetuating this myth that men are getting fucked. It's not helpful. It just isn't and what is the answer? What is the answer? There isn't one. I should pay $500 A month child support Okay, that's less than I'm paying Sure. But until we get a solution that is specific, and no one can ever get it, then then I'll be I'll get behind it. Until then all we're doing is whining and bitching and not focusing on what we can control which is ourselves. So anyway, that's my soapbox.

Dr. Glover 1:43:22
I you and I agree that moaning and groaning won't get it done. And I'm not going to go out and take on the system. I don't see it as my mission yet. But I think I think if somebody is willing to take on the system, I'll get behind a movement that really is about is about fairness. Sure. I'm all about parent because statistically, if you look at statistics, it the courts are skewed towards women in divorce. In monetary matters. Yeah, you've given a couple outliers of wealthy women.

Michael 1:43:51
It's skewed against the higher earner and that's typically man, for sure. But but the formulas are, no matter its custody and income period. Yeah. And the guy who is typically the guy who has more income and that guy gets fun I'm getting fucked. There's no question but I don't think it's because of the size of my genitalia. It's the size of my bank account or my paycheck. If I if I had less up I made less than her which again, it is rare and so if you if you look at those stats without the caveat of Well, typically men make more and for whatever various reasons I'm not getting into that fucking debate either. Right? But that's the case is that men are making more thus men are getting fucked, but it's not because they have a dick. It's because they have a bigger bank account, period. So let's move on to a couple other questions. This is a guy who's relatively new again, I won't mention his name. He's he's kind of in the thick of it. He says, and this one, I'll paraphrase so it's more about and this is one that's common guys that she leaves. She cheated. She left and she's got a new guy in her life. And that new guy is around the children. How do you wrap your head around? How do you deal with that? And maybe they're teaching the kids things that you don't agree with? Or maybe you're filling a vacuum there and assuming things but how do you deal with another man being around your children?

Dr. Glover 1:45:13
You have no control over that. You deal with it the way you deal with anything else? You don't have control over. We don't have control over gravity. Yeah, we don't have control over that. We pay taxes. We don't control over a lot of things. You can obsess about these things. But I you know, I kind of go back to a 12 step model. You know, grant me the serenity to accept the things I can't change. The you know, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. The wisdom to know the difference is the key factor in there. Can you change the fact that your ex is bringing another man around the kids probably not quit trying to control it quit obsessing is that other man doing things that are harming to your kids? Take action on that lawyer up. So even let go of what you can't change or lawyer up and take and change what you can't stay in it. You know, probably what that is. There's a there's a maximum in marriage therapy that says what the couples fighting about is not really what they're fighting about. You know, they come in they're fighting about money fighting about the kids fighting about his or her affair they're fighting. They're always fighting about something underneath. I don't know this guy. I don't know the situation. What he's obsessing about is probably not the real issue. The real issue is He's probably still connected to his axe. He's not let go of her. He's hurt. He's, he's hurt. He's found something to focus his attention on. Who is that guy? He's coming around. He's doing that blah, blah, blah. The truth is, he's not over his ex. That's okay. He's got to go do the work of getting over his ex because she is going to be around a lot of other men. Not this guy. Some

Michael 1:46:50
other guy. Yeah. Amen. Yeah, no, it's something I mean, I had to deal with it a little bit. She's about a year after my ex is with someone and yeah, you have to accept that as shitty as it is and ain't fair and he right all these things, but I can't I can't change it. Unfortunately.

Dr. Glover 1:47:06
You know what, both? Both of my ex wives my first two ex wives. Believe it or not, this is true. Both remarried within two weeks of our divorces being fine. Both of them. Yeah. remarried within two weeks. That means they got with somebody else really quickly after we split. And in which of course the piece I had to deal with with that was I meant something to her. You know, I'm that easily replaceable by I had to deal with that. That but that was just my own emotion. Sure, sure. But the good news for me was that they connected with another dude and got married so quickly. He took their attention off me I had no ongoing battles with either my ex wives, which you know, what, if you know if a new guy in their life got all of their bullshit. Hey, I was I was doing a little bit of a happy dance around that, that they were with someone else. And they didn't keep paying attention to me. They probably

Michael 1:48:06
did. I'm sure it probably took a little bit to get to at least the first time that it did it take you a little bit to get to that point where you're just like, Oh, Thank gosh, like

Dr. Glover 1:48:14
I left her so you know, no, it wasn't that terrible. Well, I but I Yes, I had a young son with her. i My son was two when we split. So was I upset she was with another guy. No. Was I concerned how my son was going to be raised? Yeah. That was but that's that was a different issue. And, and for the most part, and I've had a lot of conversations with my son since and it wasn't ideal. And I didn't know some things that were less than ideal. I just never knew until a year or two ago. But my my son's doing okay, but my son's alright. He's a good guy. Good. Life's good dad. So, apparently wasn't too traumatized. He's probably more traumatized by his mother than the new guy that came into his life.

Michael 1:49:05
Yeah, I'm sure the divorce in general was probably more more traumatic. And Ellie, I think it was illegal. All you can do well, too. It's it's not probably not as big an impact. But I think all you can do in those situations is just be the best dad. You can when when when it's your time to be that I mean, you're always dad, but I mean when you have them in your custody. That's all you can do, right? This one is an interesting one. So it's sort of about being a nice guy says since nice guys do too much to try to women's to try to win women's affection. How do you know if you're still in that mindset and your next relationship? Are you bringing her flowers doing little things for her in a healthy way? Or because you're still thinking that she'll give you the love and respect you want if you do more for her? So I guess there's there's a line there. I mean, let me ask you this. Do you buy flowers and gifts for your way? Currently, you're currently

Dr. Glover 1:49:53
from my current wife. She buys me flowers more than I do. Do I get my wife gifts? Yeah, she wears Lululemon. She flies first class. She I rented her vehicle to drive to Guadalajara this weekend because our Honda Pilot needed some repair. I take good care. But one of the rules like when I started dating, I've made a lot of rules for myself because I'm in this car like ruminating brain. You got to know where you're ruminating brain tends to go off and ruminate so you can be aware of it. You need to know where you get caught up in giving and pleasing behaviors to make somebody like you. And so you cannot do them. Right because they're there again most of the day was very unconscious. So like for example, while I was still married to my second wife, I was in therapy. I realized I was giving a lot gifts otherwise to make her happy to make her love me to make her want to have sex with me. And you know, processing that with my therapist and with her. I went on a year moratorium where I did not give any gifts no greeting cards, no, no gifts only only things my children needed. I had to get sober, of giving to get and it made me a lot more conscious of my giving process. For like then when I started dating, and then started teaching men about dating. I say do not give gifts do not give surprises do not do special things. Do not go on weekend long, you know, dates on your second and third date. I learned for example that I could not take a woman on a first second or third date and take her to do things I liked. For example, I couldn't take her to a concert at the winery, outdoor where I cook us a great meal and spread it out on the lawn and have a bottle or two of wine and listen to classic rock you know while blue sky. I couldn't do that because they fell in love with that. They fell in love with the experience of being with me as I just I've done all those things by myself many times so I didn't have a date. I'd either just sell the ticket at the gate or you know, I'd go on Craigslist and so I got a ticket who wants to come be you know, my partner for a great concert. I I'd make fun. I'd have fun with it. But I would do this anyway. So I learned there are a lot of things I couldn't do early on. So I didn't because okay if I take a woman on a second date to the winery, and we have this great meal, great time and good wine, blah, blah, and she gets to write in my Mercedes or whatever. Yeah, she's gonna fall in love with that experience. Often they did. So I made myself go slower. First three dates were a coffee date, a walk in the park date, a maybe a glass of wine at happy hour date, a maker ride a bus to a baseball game where I would buy a ticket from a scalper on a bicycle date. You know, I do stuff like that. To find out more what is her nature so I tell guys and maybe this is a good place to wrap it up here. I tell guys the purpose of dating is not to get a woman to like you is not to get laid is not to get a girlfriend it's not to find the future mother of your kids. The future. The purpose of dating is to find out as quickly as possible. Or to go slowly as possible to find out as quickly as possible. What's her nature and how does she fit into your great life? You need to be constantly asking what is her nature you don't find out her nature by giving her gifts by or surprises having you know amazing dates. You know weekend trips you don't find out her nature. You find out her nature by taking her on public transportation by spending time around her friends and family by bringing her around your friends and family by seeing how she treats waiters and shop people your job and I think it takes at least three years of conscious work to get to know the depth of a person's nature. Because with every woman I've been with, right around three years, they revealed something to me. I thought I'm just now getting to see this right you know, you know, without being too cynical, everybody shows up to date and they're all being fake. Everybody everybody's you know, saying you know, what do I do to get this guy or this girl to approve them either way. And so three years of conscious asking yourself, what is this person's nature and how does she fit into my life? Right? So that means any gift giving flowers, special events that you think are going to impress her. You're already going down. You're going the wrong direction, going the wrong direction. Does that mean you never do anything nice for them? No. But man you better be paying really close attention every time you're getting emotional mileage out of thinking, Oh, she's gonna love this. This is gonna be so cool. When I send flowers to her workplace and all her coworkers are gonna see Oh, she got flowers. This guy must be amazing. No, fuck that shit. Don't do that. Don't do it. Right. If you think she'll think I'm so great. No, that's not what we're doing. We're finding out what's her nature, and how does she fit into your life?

Michael 1:55:03
Yeah, Amen. All right. Well, thank you again for joining us, Dr. Glover. I really appreciate it. It's been fun. Yeah, the last question I asked everybody has what words of wisdom would you impart to a man who's just starting his divorce process?

Dr. Glover 1:55:17
That's just starting his divorce process. Lawyer up, lawyer up. I I have a blog, a blog post I wrote a few years back on 10 rules for going through divorce lawyer up is to host him nice guys tend to think oh, we'll be amicable I don't want to spend the money what you know, you know, maybe we'll just get you know, I'll manipulate covert contract my way. Lawyer,

Michael 1:55:47
lawyer man, I couldn't agree more thank you again for doing what's best way for people to reach you and your book and your programs. How do they get in touch with you and all you're doing

Dr. Glover 1:55:56
is by getting my books on Amazon. No more Mr. Nice Guy dating essentials for Men Dating essentials for men FAQ the big stick, most recent book all on Amazon. They can find me online at Dr. glover.com Dr. G L O V er.com. Integration nation.net integration nation.net for my new membership men's program. Any of those places if they just Google no more Mr. Nice Guy. Robert Glover I got all the top spots.

Michael 1:56:25
Awesome. Thank you again for joining us, sir. I really appreciate it.

Dr. Glover 1:56:29
Michael. This was so much fun. Thank you.

Michael 1:56:31
Thank you sir. Take care.