Episode 112 – Men’s Mental Health Coach – Elise Micheals

In this episode I welcome Men's Mental Health Coach, Elise Micheals.  Elise and I discuss what leads to divorce, unconscious trauma, and all things, Men's Mental Health.


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Michael 5:48
Joining me today is at least Micheals at least let's just jump right into it. Why? Don't you tell us a little bit about yourself.

Elise 6:03
Hey everyone, Elise Micheals. I'm a men's mental health coach and I help men find purpose and passion again by healing subconscious trauma. So all of the crap that you don't know you have stored inside that's fucking up your life. I help you see it and solve it. Point blank

Michael 6:18
I love it all right, so I was gonna ask something but I'm gonna let's dive into that first what? What is? First of all, I think this this podcast is intimately aware with trauma we talk about often. What is subconscious trauma? Number one, let's define it. I like to define things and then how do you heal from that what but what is it first what's what's your definition of subconscious trauma?

Elise 6:40
Right. So trauma in and of itself, the definition is not the impact of an event but the psychological impact of any event. So when most people think of trauma, they think about, you know, a murder or a beating or alcoholism etc. They're like, Okay, I could see that things is traumatic. But when you think about the psychological impact of any event, the subconscious trauma would be the events that have impacted you psychologically, that you are unaware of that are running and ruling your life

Michael 7:10
like I mean, I assume a lot of this is centered around childhood stuff right? So is it maybe like that kind of trauma? That's I guess some people would say is little T trauma that the kind of stuff we're talking about.

Elise 7:23
It could be either or because subconscious just assumes that you don't know that it's dictating your your actions and behaviors. So some people actually experienced big T trauma and just aren't aware of the behavior patterns in their subconscious that they're still operating on. And yes, we mostly talk about everything from childhood because that's where you learn the foundation of your self and your identity and who how you operate. In the world.

Michael 7:47
Yeah. Do you find most men are sort of unaware of the things that were traumatic in their childhood? They're just they're just not. They just don't I don't know. They're not acknowledging it or they're just not. It was to them. It was normal. It is that sort of the case.

Elise 8:04
Yeah, I mean, that's the case mostly with everybody but especially for men because we conditioned them to become neutral or dissociate from any harm that comes to them.

Michael 8:15
Yeah. Oh, man. I could speak for days about this association and that's how I dealt with my childhood is disassociated from from the pain of particularly my mother's actions. That's a question. So in a lot of your work, do you find that the stuff that comes up childhood stuff is that I don't know I put it in quotes. Is that more the mom's stuff for lack of a better eloquent description or dad actions and interactions?

Elise 8:48
It's both because usually, if you have one toxic parent, you have two toxic parents because it's going to be codependent, right? You can't have one toxic parent who is paired with a healthy person healthy people are not attracted to unhealthy people. So in some way, shape or form. Even if that person feels better to the child or seems or appears better, they are still supporting the systems of the other parent in some way. Right. So one they may think has impacted them more, but it's always going to be a two for one.

Michael 9:21
Yeah. Now you make a solid point. And wrote down dating because I want to touch on that too. In terms of going forward, but but I want to go back to what I was what I sort of mentioned before we really started talking is is your take on divorce, what leads to it and you know, in the stats, depending on who you look at, it's either 69% or 80% depending on if it's college educated women is 90% of divorces are filed by women. Why do you think that is why why? Why are women filing more and and what is the sort of drive or what what is leading that to occur? In your in your view?

Elise 10:01
Yeah, so I love that you're asking this question and I'm gonna say a lot of controversial things that maybe people won't like but I think that they will understand and resonate with. So yeah, I'm a men's coach. So in my line of work, men are always bringing up this statistic as if it's proof that women are not committed or loyal in relationships. But and there are so many things that can that can happen in a marriage to cause a divorce. Right, I think let's just get some of those out of the way first, number one, I think people get married too early in the understanding of themselves. So it doesn't matter what age you get married. It matters at what point you understand yourself enough to set your needs boundaries to understand the logistics of what a marriage and what a true partnership is, because people base the marriage off of love and not the marriage off of actual compatibility. So that gets in the way because you love each other. You love each other. You get married and you find out you're not compatible in so many different ways or you don't know how to work through problems and then you know, falls apart you get divorced. The second one can obviously be like you know, kind of abusive situations where people get into marriages and they change so much and they start neglecting their partner they don't want to change it back. You know, they just see it as better to separate so that's that's number two why people can separate number three is just you know, yeah, like healthy Parting of the Ways right, both of you change. You weren't good partners, you've just matured and I think that's just I think it's these are all symptoms of just number one. We don't know ourselves enough to know who a true partner for us could be. It's all the limiting beliefs. It's all the subconscious trauma that we have that we haven't solved, that causes this. So So why women and so I'm going to point out some things for men that they may not like to hear, but I think that they will resonate with Okay, so number one, society has not supported or trained men enough on what it means to be an equal partner. Right. And a lot of men say that we need to go back to traditional ways. The rules were better. People stayed together, people stayed together because they didn't have any other choice, not necessarily because they were happier, or because you know they wanted to or because it worked out. Now we have more choices. So people are divorcing more because they have a choice. We have more options as women because we do have jobs so we can survive. On our own. We're not relying on someone to support us. And naturally, statistically, most of the housework most of the childcare falls on the woman naturally, so she feels unsupported as a partner mentally, emotionally, whatever, which makes her shut down physically, which is where the man starts to feel rejection in the marriage the most. So she's upset because he won't vacuum or do the dishes. And he's upset because she won't have sex with him or be intimate with him in any way but she's totally emotionally shut down. So there's disconnect there because he doesn't understand that his connection to supporting her in those roles will support him in the intimacy role. So there's like just miscommunication misdirection. So she will file right. But women, just because women file more doesn't mean that they aren't loyal to relationships that they want the divorce. They're just, they have less to lose, by divorcing because women statistically singly live longer outside of marriage than in so like the men, like men have more incentive to stay in a marriage, even if they're miserable, because statistically, most of the states in the United States support the women in the divorce court. I mean, that's a fact. Like so men will generally lose half their money, half the time with the kids, so he generally doesn't leave a marriage. Also, this is a little bit of a digression. But I wonder what your take is on this. This is what I've heard is that men are more loyal to the partnership that they've created and keeping the family unit together, as opposed to saying that they're loyal to the person whereas a woman is more loyal to the love and to the person. Then she is to like keeping the family unit together. So like, even if he's cheated, or even if she's cheated, he sees that like keeping it together is is a better option. And she says we'll know if someone's betrayed me. I don't see that as the better option. I want to separate. I wonder how you would how you would see that because I've been taught

Michael 14:24
not no worries. There like I said earlier, I have a transcript service and I always love when I get this synopsis of the transcript and it's I don't talk as much because that's that's the way supposed to be so I don't mind you talking. I think, you know, I think it's tricky to quantify any of this stuff. Because I think there is so much nuance to stories to, you know, there's obviously benefit in sort of generalizing, you know, especially if you're going through it, you can sort of try and get some sort of perspective. I think the danger in in and I will get your point but going back to sort of some of the numbers and stuff I think why I don't really lean on them too much. I know them clearly but I don't I don't think it means that women are aren't loyal or they're terrible or anything of that nature. I have two daughters, so I can't really swallow the red pill. I think it's bullshit made up by guys who are bitter and angry and want to make money off other bitter and angry dudes, but so I do think that it seems to be that if women are filing so much so then that would I think indicate that they're not as concerned with the family unit and they're more concerned with their own relationship with that partner, which I think is very very sad in sort of counterintuitive the of what you would think of the mother is nurturing and loving and, you know, making sure that the family is intact. And I do think that I don't know about cheating because I know guys that drew the line when that occurred and said, I couldn't do it anymore. I also interviewed someone on she was an infidelity expert, I guess is the right way and she basically said that, you know, women, the women that were cheaters felt she didn't use the word entitled at all use it because they weren't getting their needs met. It mostly physically is small sample 30 some odd people I think but and the men were similar but they had no guilt and no no like second thoughts because they really felt like you know, they deserve it or whatever. And the women were the same but they had they did have a little bit of guilt, but the ultimately they did it anyway. So I don't know. I think it's so hard to speak for all the experiences that occur because I think I think there are I think there is a common thread and I think you're 100% right when you talk about women feel, I think out of balance, and I'm guilty and I was guilty and if I had to do it all over again, I would have done a completely different but I didn't in, in my defense and in men's defense in some ways. That was my template. You know, I'm a Gen X er and so my mom didn't most of the time. During my childhood, she did not work. Besides she like babysat. She worked out of the house or whatever. Right? And so that was she did all the cooking and my dad was a truck driver. So that was even extra like he was gone a decent amount. So mom did the cooking and the cleaning. Dad did the yard work like so that was the template but but my mom wasn't for the most part wasn't a full time worker. And so it there wasn't she didn't have the same pressures of my ex who is you know, has a career. She's got a master's degree she has a career and and I I didn't I didn't know any better. So so to speak, but also in my defense. Again, you know, hindsight is a beautiful thing, but I never really I think men are really bad. And I'm going to generalize here and I don't like I said, I don't like to do that. But I think we're really unless you grab a man and shake him and tell him this is the exact fucking problem and you need to fucking fix this exact fucking thing or I'm leaving. Men aren't because we don't like emotions and problems and you know, we don't want to deal with it. Honestly. If we just ignored it'll go away and that's the danger because I think if you sort of ignore it, or maybe you know sort of placate eventually women do stop talking in any kind of way and we think that means it's fixed but, but I will say that I think it would have been helpful. Excuse me for me. If my ex was more explicit about what her what her struggles were and maybe like, like I said, maybe she did, and I just wasn't hearing it or it wasn't an effective way or whatever. But I think that I say this all the time. There's only one person in this equation that I can control and that is me. And so my actions are and my feelings are more of a concern. I don't think that women are terrible and that's why all these divorces are happening. I do think it is also a symptom. I don't have symptoms right where but it certainly is, you know, at least a part of the you know, sort of feminism and the ability to and by the way, I'm all for two income households. First of all, we need it nowadays because every fucking thing is expensive. So I'm all for for that but that has caused this ability. As you said, now you have options sort of so to speak, but I do wonder if that isn't eventually going to bite women in the ass because what are they what are they running from? And what are they running to? Freedom? From what? You know what I mean? Like it, could it could it be solved and could it be worked out? I think a majority of the time it could be I think unfortunately women get to the point where that when they're done, they're done and good, bad or indifferent. It was conveyed that they were getting to that point, like I almost had, like I knew we were having troubles but I didn't really realize it was that bad. You know, and again, whose fault I don't know. But I think that unfortunately, as back to your point, and I'll shut up here in a second because I don't like to talk as much unless I'm doing a solo episode. I think that men just they just didn't know and we don't know any better. We didn't we didn't know any better and that's the purpose of this podcast is I try to fix that the side that that aren't that's my team. I'm Team man. That's my that's my team. And so if I can help that team be better good. That's that's what I'm trying to do and pointing fingers all day long at women in society and feminism and all this kind of shit doesn't really get me anywhere. It doesn't do me any good. So anyway, to answer your question, I don't know. I think I think there seems to be women or seem to be more concerned with the self and the relationship with a partner and I don't mean that in a negative way. I just mean, that's what I see. And I think I think men funny enough and in a kind of way are more concerned about the family unit and the impact on the kids. That's my view.

Elise 20:53
Right and you bring up so many good points in everything you just said and yeah, I think times are definitely changing where everything is becoming more expensive. And women are more than willing to work but then they're like, okay, but at what cost is it for me to work and have to do all this extra stuff? Because, like you said, many men don't know any different, like it's no fault to anybody who doesn't know any different right? That's what we grew up with. We never question it until we get into situations like this where we're like, oh shit, I guess I should have done something different crying but you don't know until after it's an unfortunate occurrence. But you get a lot of the like the red pill thinkers who think okay, like I make the money, and she's making money too, and I want someone to build with me but like, okay, like, are you also contributing to the household stuff because I actually listened to this from Andrew Tate, which I actually really liked. He said when a woman decides to have your child, she gives your life to you. She's putting her life in your hands because she is enduring creating a life and her body is going to be forever changed. She's going to have to like take care of that child you go off to work and and it's your job to support her because she has entrusted you with her life and with and if we thought about that type of responsibility, right? It's a lot more than just, I put food on the table, right? Like there's a there's a whole different responsibility. I think that we forget the responsibility of having children, the responsibility of marriage, that somebody is really giving their life to you. They're saying I love you so much. I'm gonna give my life to you eliminate the choices and and we've taken away the value of marriage so then we don't value the struggle of the marriage and working through it because there's an easy out.

Michael 22:40
Yeah, unfortunately. Yeah. And I think you know, good bad or indifferent right? I don't know that your your I don't know that she is giving you her life anymore. Right? Because if that was the case, yeah. Then Then she couldn't she couldn't leave. Right. But now she can write again, good, better and different. That's just the way society is rolled. Women decided they want to go out into the workforce. Again, I'm all for it. But But I think the rules or the dynamics certainly have changed and it's not that way anymore. Yeah, I you know, even I say this all the time. I don't have a fucking time machine. So I can't go back anyway, like I can bitch and moan and complain, but oh, this was better. Wait, I don't know what's it maybe maybe for men and maybe wasn't for what I don't know who fucking cares because I can't go back anyway. Right. But I do think that it's it is a bit easier to walk away than it perhaps should be. And I don't know how to fix that. You know, people again, bitch and moan all you know, you know, had to give up half my money. Well, you know, you know, oh, man, get screwed. Go talk to Kelly Clarkson. I think she pays like $100,000 a month in spousal support. So it's not the size of your genitalia. It's the size of your paycheck. I do think that is an unbalanced situation. I don't think anyone should have to go into poverty to to pay for someone else it but I don't know what the fucking answer is. But I want to talk about you talked about on your website, you know, be men becoming mentally stable and emotionally free. What what does that mean exactly. And how do you get there? I know that's sort of a broad question and maybe you want to break it down, but and maybe we focus on mentally stable, but what what is how are men not mentally stable and how do we get there?

Elise 24:27
Right, well, everybody has their own mental instability in some areas of their lives. Right? Spiritual, financial, emotional, relational, whatever it is, and you see it by the parts of your life that you are unsatisfied with, like, wherever the stability is lacking. That's where you know that there are some gaps and if you tried to solve it, but nothing's changed. Well, then there's something that you can't see which goes back into the subconscious trauma. So the journey of becoming mentally stable and emotionally free, is being in complete understanding of what you don't know and being able to be in control of it. And being in control of it doesn't mean that we don't allow it that we shove it down that we dissociate from it. It's embodying it, and understanding you're going to be okay, working through it. And a lot of men think that they can control their emotions by just avoiding them or shutting them down and they're like, I'm true, stoic. I'm a true man. But that's not being emotionally free. That's actually being a slave to your emotions because you are so afraid of them that you run away that you hide that you've shoved them down. And then you're losing out on the magic of being a human with sentience. What's the point of thinking if you're going to train yourself to be a robot? What's the point of even having a conscious thought? You might as well just revert back to a primate because you're ignoring the the gift of being a human and when you embrace that you are so powerful because you don't let it control you anymore. You control it.

Michael 25:58
Yeah, it's about managing more than more than anything, right? Because a friend of mine, who was in a coach, I was at a program called the Alpha code, and he was a coach in the Alpha code. And he talks about you can't control emotions. You know, if you're walking down the street and someone jumps out at you and scares you, you're gonna react like you can't control that like it's gonna happen. And so the power is in controlling or managing and determining, okay, what do I do with that now? But, boy, is that really fucking hard? Yeah, because I think we've been so conditioned, trained, whatever to either to lightning quick get to anger, right? Or we just shut it all down. So how do you what's the process for like, Well, how do you get men to get away from that, like, how do you what's the methodology? Is it sort of like mindfulness meditation, you know, what, what are some of the things that that allow? Are there that can allow men to sort of better manage their emotions?

Elise 27:04
In order for anyone to better manage their emotions or to even get back in touch with their emotions? We have to understand that they're not just psychological thoughts that we have. I'm sad, I'm happy I'm mad. I'm angry. They're physiological. So part of understanding emotions or controlling them is getting back in touch with the physiological response you're having, like you said, someone jumps out at you scares you. You're like, Oh, my God. Your body has done something in that moment, right or to prepare itself for fight or flight. This actually happens with every single emotion that we have. And basically, nobody understands or knows that. So that's why you can meditate or do yoga or journal, whatever and it doesn't help that like I did that it didn't work for me. Yeah. Because you you are working with the logical part of yourself, not the physiological part. So you can do whatever the hell you want. Yoga meditation there, none of those are like keys to the universe. It's whatever unlocks you to relax every single muscle in your body. Because that's what signals to your brain that you're safe. Yeah, it turns on different parts of your brain, right? And so getting back in touch with your emotions is tapping into your body. When you feel like you might be experiencing one or just getting to understand your body in the present moment, because then it will start communicating to your brain to your logical thought process. What is going on?

Michael 28:21
Yeah, man, I love that you're talking about this stuff, because I agree, and it's stuff that I've learned and I didn't have a fucking clue about, and it's definitely helped me. And I noticed on the website, you said you do work with women and but your focus is men. So

Elise 28:36
I mean, I've worked with women in the beginning. Oh, my, I've worked solely with men for like the last three years.

Michael 28:41
It's so between those two timeframes is it is this concept of dropping in your body learning, learning how your your, your thoughts affect your body, how your body can see with your mind, is that more difficult concept to get across the men than women? And I know I'm generalizing, but I'm just curious.

Elise 29:02
Yes. Agreed. It is but like, once you explain the science behind it, it's much easier to understand I think that everybody has been told you need to meditate. You need to meditate and people are like, I don't fucking want to meditate. Because my mind is racing. I'm doing all these things. But once I tell them, hey, listen, it's not about the meditation. It's about getting your body into a state of relaxation. So you can turn on different parts of your brain and something clicked and like, Oh, I just need to relax because it's turning my brain on then they get it right then it makes sense because men need logic and understanding women are like intuitively like okay, I'll just meditate and they'll naturally understand what that means most of the time. Yeah. But they're also not understanding it in a logical way. When you can understand something in a logical way you can do it properly. And that's where I find like a lot of these programs kind of fail people because they don't connect the dots for people to understand it properly.

Michael 29:57
Yeah, I agree. Yeah. I mean, I I've been taught it, I teach it and it's, it's a different concept. But if you understand sort of the, you know, ones and zeros of it, so to speak, like, it makes it easier to sort of to embody it, you know, and it's but it's, it's a practice, you know, you have to you have to work at it. I think like it like anything, right? It's not, you know, it's not super easy to just stop and figure out where is my my anger in my body, or where is my sadness or what am I like, it's just a different foreign concept, especially anger because we're so gosh, men lean on anger. So I see it all. The time. Like I was telling on the earliest i i with the help of some really great men run a Facebook group, and there's 7000 men in there and I see the anger on a daily and it said that it's it is that way, but it is that way. But if you can learn how to start to pause and to drop in your body into to soothe yourself essentially right like you're saying, you can you can get out of that fight or flight fight obviously, and start making some sort of logical decisions, but man, it's really fucking hard. Is that out of you know, you deal with a lot of money coach a lot of men is like is that is that the most difficult sort of concept or idea to get across to them or what what is the what is that what is the most what is the most challenging thing for men to grasp or learn in this sort of a you know, mental health type of self help? Type sphere?

Elise 31:30
When men are coming to my sessions, they are at like a Hail Mary place, right? Like they've, they've done everything that they can possibly think of, and they are at a place where they're very ready to change. Yeah, and the hardest thing I've seen for men to grasp is that it's not necessarily about what they need to add on to their plate. What they need to add on to their plate. It's more about what they need to take away in that healing doesn't have to be so difficult, and it's not a checklist. Because if you make something into a checklist, it's just another thing that you have to do and then you're checking it off as opposed to feeling the difference and allowing things to change. And so the difficult part is releasing that part of the identity that says I have to work so hard, I have to earn my right to peace. I have to earn my right to love. So when they come into the session, they kind of like might resist that at certain points that like oh, if I relax, things are going to work out for me. Yeah. Right. Right. And so it takes a little bit of training because I'm like, I seen the transformation, you know, over and over and over and over and over again. So for me, it's very easy to convey the the hope there, but that would that's what I would say is the difficult part is that it's not they don't have to do more and do more and do more. It's that you can actually release and be better off.

Michael 32:44
What if you don't mind? I'm curious what drove you to work with men solely.

Elise 32:50
I, I was actually trying to work with women. And I was posting video content on LinkedIn, and men were the only ones who reached out to me for help. Yeah, so after about six months, I just really realized how much men don't have support for mental health. And this was like over three and a half years ago, right? So I just decided to say like, I'm gonna study men's problems, and I'm just gonna open that door for men. I'm just gonna be men's coach.

Michael 33:19
That's pretty fucking awesome. Because there isn't. There isn't a lot of it out there. You know, for men in terms of mental health. There's such a stigma. I think it's getting better in terms of certainly in my group, I push it all the time. You know, I have mental health Monday in my group, and while I certainly encourage therapy and talking about her feelings and sharing and in, but man if you look around, there isn't a lot of that. There's some you know, it's and again, I think it's getting better but it's severely lacking I think in America, especially because we're just we're not only as men but I think people you know, we're go go go you know got to you know, work and rat race and all that kind of shit. And I think it's it's pretty awesome that you you made that decision because like I said, there's just there's not a lot there's there's there's the red pill, which it's again, it's not for me, the folks that listen are keenly aware of that I think it's bullshit. But it's, it's it's a space that isn't occupied by a lot of folks. So thanks for doing it. I know I appreciate it.

Elise 34:21
Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And like you said, it's definitely grown. Now. I've seen such a boost in last couple of years of like, I feel like everybody's kind of trying to be a men's coach now, which is, it's totally cool except for when I I feel like people kind of make enemies out of each other. Like we all have the same common goal. And also, you know, so many of my clients come to me and they've all had therapists, usually Yeah. And I think that there's something to be said about how I think the therapeutic world needs to needs to update its structure needs to needs to be able to be more open and, and understand the different ways of helping people because I've heard so many horror stories about how like, you know, a lot of therapists are bias bias towards the women not not really understanding how men work, not really understanding how to support them, and it's just really sad. There's so many rules and restrictions around it, that a lot of people don't feel helped. You know, a lot of people do feel helps but it kind of depends on the person that you get, right, because everybody has their own style. 1000s And if you don't get the right person with the right style, you know, you're not going to be helped and that's why I know I don't want to make a war of coaches or therapists because I totally I have a therapist. I love her. I got lucky right. But I think that there are things that need to be updated, I think coaches need more training. But I think therapists also need to maybe adopt more coaching practices if they are allowed because people also want to get better. I don't think it's right to support the victim mentality. And then also just to understand, like men do operate differently than women. They want different ways of doing things.

Michael 36:00
Do you think it's it's a it's I guess, is my guess it's it's more of a legal thing, right? It's more of a right like the therapists don't want to get their pants suit off of them. So that's why they don't necessarily give advice and I think there's some I think there's some value in in sort of getting the horse to lead itself to the water in a way right but also thinks it can can be that's not always the right process for everybody. You know, some some folks just need to be told, dude, stop doing that. Whatever that is, instead of the really think that's helpful. Well, it doesn't matter if I think it's fucking helpful is what I'm doing. So, you know, tell me not to do it. I think it's sometimes better but I think I think you're right, it not only boils down to that type of stuff in terms of the logistics of being a therapist, but being it's like, anything, right? Not all chefs are good at right. Not all baseball players are, you know, major league stars, etc, etc. Right? So I think you can, as my buddy Chris says, you know, even even every doctor out there, that doesn't matter. You know, all they needed was a D to get by. doesn't mean they're good at what they do, just means that they happen to pass. So I think finding a good therapy it's like, it's like I liken it to dating, like, don't settle for the first. I mean, unless the first one's a great one. And then so be it, but you got to sort of shop around. How did you just out of curiosity, how did you find your therapist?

Elise 37:26
Yes, it was like five years ago. I found her on BetterHelp Okay, everybody really shits on that website, but I Mines a doctor, and she's awesome. And she she left like a like a year after or something and we've just stayed on and you know, it's nice to kind of like grow with your therapist, and one time she went on maternity leave and she suggested a different therapist. I mean, I was going through a hard time. And I didn't resonate with that therapist at all. Yeah. And I was like, I need to go back to my therapist. She understands me she she says things the way that I like, so I got really lucky. But I also think it's important to like you said when dating. Some people go into the dating world, and they're like, I'm just gonna give it a shot. I'm gonna see what's out there. They don't have any and I'm not saying like, you need to have a strategic checklist. But there are things no, you should have a strategic checklist. You shouldn't have like a checklist of like, oh, blond hair, blue eyes, whatever. Like, but understand what you're looking for what you want what you need. Do you travel a lot? Do you want someone who desires to be a mom, do you want someone who you know knows how to like plant a garden? I don't know. Right? Look for those things and be strategic about it. I looked for a therapist that was specific in relationships because I was struggling in a relationship. So when you're looking for a therapist, like look for a divorce therapist, look for a childhood trauma therapist, like look for a specialty, because that's going to help you in the long run.

Michael 38:45
Yeah, so I didn't mean the to make that into an awesome segue, but I'll take it. So I want to talk about dating because this is something that I again, when there's two things that drive me nuts about men that are going through divorce, and it doesn't mean I'm mad at them. I love them all. Most of them some of them suck but they get really really really angry. And that's I get that I went through it myself but they stay there and two they start dating immediately again also guilty but eventually I learned like oh shit, this isn't helping. So in when you work with these guys in you see that even if it's a breakup or whatever, like what what is your recommendation in terms of and I bother to answer but in terms of updating, like what what how soon, you know, or what criteria do you sort of use to determine Okay, I think you might be ready to get back out there.

Elise 39:41
I mean, it's different kind of for every man. And to be fair, I don't work with a lot of freshly divorced men I work with married men who are struggling in their relationships. Gotcha and are and then are either going through the process of divorce, or they've been divorced for a long time. But I definitely see that pattern as well. And where I've experienced this the most is when I'm helping men who have an avoidant attachment style, run away from a relationship and then try to get you another one. And the thing is, I don't tell them everything to do because it's not like you said, you have to lead the horse. The horse has to lead itself to water at some point. Yeah. But I encourage some more secure attachment styles, right? So I asked questions that kind of answered within themselves, okay, like what is our desire to do this right now? Like it's because we're mad is it because we want validation? And if you want to go out and date, okay, sure, but make sure you're clearly communicating with that person, the place that you're at, because then at least we're developing different skill sets, different habits, and we're not just attracting the exact same patterns that we were before, because the fear usually of getting into the exact same relationship I think does stop a lot of men from from dating after their divorce. They're like, I never wanna do that again. So they do a complete pendulum swing. And usually, like you said, when they're angry, they're kind of like dicks about it. They're like, I want this, this and this, and I'm not going to take anything else. But then what you attract is someone who is very anxiously attached low self esteem. Yes. No secure person is going to take someone who is so aggressive so because when you're demanding all those things, you're closed off in your heart. Yeah. And no secure person wants someone who's closed off in their hearts, you attract someone who's very toxic. The exact thing that you were trying to avoid, because that's exactly where you're at. So we have to take a pause, and I lay it out for them just like that. Okay, like if you go out in this energy, this is what you're gonna get. Is that what you want? No. Well, okay, let's rethink then what do we want to change? What do we actually want to attract? And now let's think about how we can change ourselves so that we can be a match to that person. And chances are that person is not going to be ready for you yet because you're not ready for that yet.

Michael 41:46
Yeah, man. I love that. Yeah, I mean, he hit the nail on the head. I think one of the things that divorce does provide is an opportunity to learn about yourself to grow, to figure out what you really want and who you really are. And it's unfortunate that men don't take that time sometimes some some men I don't know the percentages, it seems low from being honest. But it's so key because yeah, why the hell would you want to repeat it? But also you can't not repeat it if you don't understand it, like why occurred or what went wrong or how what your pardon was? So important. I want to talk about I have a question and I'm curious as to your answer is you've worked with a lot of men and you're in this sort of space and you've been around them. So what what is your definition of a man what is a man and 2023? What's your definition of that?

Elise 42:41
This is such a polarizing topic.

Elise 42:45
Apart from I feel like I'm gonna get cancelled no matter what I say with it. Well, okay, let's let men have to decide for themselves

Michael 42:53
all right. Although,

Elise 42:55
you know, yeah, I mean, I don't have a definition for what a man is. Right apart from having the male genitalia and being born a man, you're a man but how you develop your character as a man your values as a man is up to you. But I think living up to the standards, values, characters integrity, that makes you feel strong, powerful, good, loved validated, is going to make you feel like the strongest, most respected form of a man I think men who do harm because I think that's what's going to give them respect or validation. They are not living in like their divine masculine, let's say like, they're, they're living in a wound. I don't believe in the movements, like you said, the red pill movement where, you know, it takes all the suffering of men but then blames it on the women. Yeah, that's not living in your full masculinity. Because it did. It avoids your power, right? Like it takes your power away. You're not sovereign, you can now you're just a slave to the concept that women are above you. Yeah, you're giving them all the power when you could say like, Hey, like I'm really suffering, but I'm going to figure this out. And I'm going to honor whoever's around me because I'm not going to attract the type of person because there's also examples of perfectly healthy women, perfectly healthy men, healthy marriages, healthy happy families, there are those things that exist in the world. So why are we focusing so much on the brokenness, on the on the toxicity on the patterns when you do that? You attract that?

Michael 44:20
I think, I think why is because it's easier number one, for us, especially initially, I know when I was going through it. Initially, I was distraught and broken and I was trying everything and in wasn't doing a lot of self reflecting. And then I came across that the rational male. Luckily I I always say I'm smart enough to know that I'm not that smart. But luckily I was smart enough to know, like three chapters in it, that was horseshit. It was simply Yeah, I'm a victim. It's all women's fault. I just need to be a dick essentially, and that'll make everything okay. And it's just again, it's just missing out on an opportunity to better the self. That's the only thing I can control. Anyway, I always come back to that all the time. What can I control? If Okay, all women suck. All right, cool. What fuck am I going to do about that? Work on me period. And to your point, I always that's why I'm not a fan of generalization. There are certain things that do apply but there are examples of happy relationships and happy marriages. If there's one that's enough for me, and maybe there's only one maybe there's only one fucking couple in the world is happy. Okay, fine. Still one right now it gives that gives you some kind of hope but where's the hope and women are high Pergamus they're gonna leave me anyway and it's just I'm gonna be a abusive or Cousteau and cold stoic or I mean there's some some stoic philosophies I think that are good, but I just don't see the joy in that I think you can't have if you don't have all the emotions, you're never gonna get all the emotions that makes any sense. Like if, if if all you have is the middle, where's all your joy? Where's all your happiness? And if you can't have that, or if you don't have that, and you know, or if you do what comes with that has to be the lows to it's, it's life's hard. And I think that means that sometimes it's going to suck but that also doesn't mean it's always going to suck. And it's always going to be terrible, or it's always our I always have to keep my guard up or whatever. I think that's that's not that's not the case. And I don't think it's helpful to sort of take that view. At least at least in my eyes, so I think I think that's I think we're, we're gonna wrap up I think

Elise 46:34
I just want to say one thing about what you said, yeah. You know, previously about men. Always reverting to anger. This is something like really to understand that because we don't allow men to experience their full range of emotions. I think the biggest fear of a lot of men is experiencing pain and sadness. Yeah. And so they will always reject pain and sadness and cover it up with anger. Yeah. And that's where it gets easy to blame people because when you can blame someone when when you can make someone the villain you can make them an enemy. And when you have an enemy, you're not sad about it, you're angry. And anger gives you movement and gives you power. I actually think it's very healthy, to be angry after a breakup if you're moving through a process, right? Because the anger gets you out of depression. It gets you out of sadness. It gets you out of helplessness and gives you some actions. movement when you get stuck there. Yeah, then you make yourself a victim by default and and it's so it's so a victim is going to be a victim Right? Like like you are empowered man. So you're saying even if there's one couple like that gives me hope, but a victim is gonna see all the couples and and find the one flaw and say well that's not all women. Right? Yeah, most most, most women aren't like that. I have so many men who comments on my videos and go where do I find a woman like that? Yeah. Ignoring the fact that I've created an entire following based upon these concepts. Like I'm an example. Right? I would like to think that I'm an example. So it's kind of disheartening when you see so many people resist the ability to receive love because that's also what it is to your heart is so closed off that you're resisting the gifts that are that could come to you and so I would encourage a lot of men to like look past the anger into the depth of the sadness because once you release that, you know your heart can be open again to receive the beautiful things that that are available to you.

Michael 48:21
And you might I I'm curious it and I might not keep this in but I'm curious. You said you have a following up. You have folks that watch what you do and a comment and they're interactive and as a woman as a as I mentioned earlier, clearly attractive woman does that a weird like do you ever like worry or wonder if people and I'm not so weird question, I guess but I'm just curious as a woman do you worry that people are following you because just of your attractiveness and not what you're saying or do you think it does that never crossed your mind or like as a woman I you know, I gotta imagine there's I mean, obviously there's pressure to all of us to be attractive and look attractive, right? But I got to think is much worse for women and someone that's in the sort of the public sphere like the does that kind of shit where we're, you

Elise 49:17
know, because I know what's going to happen regardless. And I probably utilize it to be honest because I I've studied psychology, right? I study sales. The way of the world is how people see you like, like, even when you go to restaurant like your eyes eat before before your mouth does right? When people do judge a book by its cover. Yeah. So everything is about brand and perception and this is my brand. So whether I care about men following me for my looks, or my content doesn't necessarily matter because they're going to be attracted to the look first. If I can't get them to look, I can't get them to listen. And that also crafts into the story that I'm portraying of like yeah, maybe they like the way my face looks, but I don't have full body shots. I don't wear bikinis on my profile. Only fans, you know, it's like the rest of the look is professional. So it's like, whatever and I have to be confident in how I look anyway because that's like I'm not gonna control dingy. It's just not my style. Right? I want to portray this character of looking good. You know, like, so. I don't worry about it, because it doesn't matter because the men who need the message here the message.

Michael 50:34
Yeah, very true. No, I that's a great I just always, sort of, again, I have two daughters. So I always sort of, I mean, I don't think that they're I don't know I mean no one wants to be a vet mom wants to be a teacher or a therapist, depending on what they you ask her. And so I don't I don't know that they're going down this path, but I do worry or not worry. But I wonder like, the pressures of of being attractive. And then you know, you're you're out there in a in a sort of the public sphere. I just curious if if that ever, like really bothered you or crossed your mind? I? I'm happy I'm a man. I'll say that. I mean, there's certainly there are challenges. But I would think that the pressure of being a woman and I don't know i don't i don't worry if when I post this if anyone's going to think that I look attractive or anything of that nature, right? I mean, I hope that maybe that's nicer to do, I guess, but like, I don't, I don't I'm not really concerned about it. But I imagine that it does, it must cross your mind. And I'm just wondering if that was any kind of a pressure that sometimes got to you but it sounds like a dozen so that's awesome. I you know, props to you. Because that would be man, I might, I might lose my mind if I had to worry about that. Do you? Like I said, Let's wipe out something. I'll probably cut some of this stuff out. But do you what do you look at your ad? This this one I will for sure. This is my own personal question. Do you do you look at your analytics a lot? Do you like do you like figure out like, like when people aren't watching or when they stop watching or like what video? I mean, obviously you're probably looking at like what videos get the most sort of interaction or do you worry about that stuff or do you look at that stuff?

Elise 52:13
Yeah, I mean, I don't I don't analyze it like a perfectionist would. But I look at like the commonalities, the patterns, when it comes to like, looks like maybe I didn't understand your question first. But no, I never worry about how I look when I mean, I do, but not to the point. Where like, I'm not insecure about it. Yeah, no, like I don't think about this like oh my god, what are they gonna think about how I look, I just fucking because when I first started recording my videos on LinkedIn, I would do it like when I'm running outside or in the gym, like I was in my gym, look, no makeup on. I didn't care and I was getting attention then. It's only recently that I started to say, you know like, I just want to have a cleaner look for myself. Sure. But like, I know that so I know that at least the foundation of my content is why people follow me. Yeah. Well, yeah. And also I don't have the ego like I'm not that good looking. So like, I know people are just following me for that you know, I'm not like, whatever her name is, Giselle, you know, so it's not that I know it's not that and it will never be that because I'm not seven feet tall. So I don't know like they're following Sure. Maybe that's like a part of it, but like, not the foundation you don't get. Yeah,

Michael 53:23
yeah, well I mean, first of all, you're beautiful. I don't know about Giselle, but

Elise 53:27
I don't know. You know, Tom Brady's ex wife. Come on.

Michael 53:31
I like his first ex wife better. I don't know if he was even married to her Bridget. Was Yeah, okay. I think he has a kid with her, but I thought she was hotter than she is. Oh, I didn't. She wasn't my type. Anyway, I was just curious like, if that like sort of crossed your mind or was like something you would have to worry about. But But you're right. I think regardless of like, what you look like the content is what's going to keep people coming back, like to your point like you're not in a bikini so it's not that people aren't there just for that they might they might see you and go oh, wow, she's cute. And then listen to you, and stick around because I like what you say. It's

Elise 54:09
just like for men, sorry, you're no good, good. I'm just like getting like because it's because I take care of myself. So I don't worry about it. Right. Like, I go to the gym. I have a very strategic diet like it's I do my makeup everyday like it's just shit that I don't. I don't have to think twice about because I know that I'm taking care of myself. Yeah, and it's just kind of like as a man if you have a job, you're financially secure. You don't really think about feeling insecure about money. Right? Like you don't think about it because you just do it every day. It's part of your routine. Yeah. And that's where the thing is, like, people only feel insecure about this shit when they know that there's something more they could do. I'm doing all I can do for this. You know, I'm

Elise 54:49
getting the facials. I'm putting the money in like I'm working hard for this shit. I've grown a lot. I've had to grow up. Okay, so that's why I appreciate you telling me I look beautiful. Thank you. It's expensive. It's expensive to fucking be beautiful, right? It is expensive to be a girl. Let me tell you I can only imagine.

Elise 55:06
I appreciate it. So but like that's the thing like if somebody's working on themselves. I don't think that they're as insecure about it. I just don't I think that people who work on themselves in these so if you're feeling insecure, if you're feeling like you're a little jealous, someone just means you got a little bit of work to do in that area for yourself.

Michael 55:23
Yeah, no agreed. I always admire anyone that can can put themselves out there in the public because while I've had some negative comments, for the most part, and I'm not I don't have you know, I just started on YouTube. When was it November? I mean, the podcast is about two and a half years old, but I didn't put it on YouTube for a little while. So I don't have a lot of YouTube followings and people generally don't comment on on. You can't. If you listen to Spotify, you can't fucking comment on Spotify. I mean, you can leave a review I guess but like, I don't get a ton of comments. But I'm not but I've only been on like I said only been on YouTube first for a small period of time but but but I have gotten negative stuff and you know, I can't I can't lie and say it never bothered me it's it you know, I think any any negativity can but but I try not to let it but I'm not again I'm not you know I'm not out there as much as I'd hoped to be in the future. But do you struggle with that at all ever? Do you get negative comments, do you? I'm sure you probably must because some people are just fucking miserable. But how do you how do you deal with it?

Elise 56:37
In the beginning, it really bothered me, especially from tick tock tick tock was toxic place ever. Oh, so bad. People would be like, this woman is the devil. She doesn't know what she's talking about. I feel bad for every single man that you come in contact with it like really, really got me down. Like she doesn't know what she's talking about. I kind of I just stopped reading any of the comments, but then I then I thought to myself, you know, if I want Jeff Bezos level of success, I have to be willing to endure Jeff Bezos level of hate because Jeff Bezos gets shat on every single day

Elise 57:11
from millions of people. But he does you think he goes he's? He's chillin. So listen, like

Elise 57:19
every single level that you rise up to there's always going to be another level of hate because the universe has the law of polarity for everything. There's an equal and exact opposite. I want to see success which means I have to embrace endure and accept that there's going to be some backlash. And am I willing to be okay with that? And I said, Yes. Like I want to have a big impact. So someday I'll get death threats. I don't know. Whatever. Yeah, I'm sure it's gonna happen. Like I'm sure it'll do but I just don't see it. And I like literally don't it doesn't eat it doesn't even touch me. You know, because I've still also so much support that I focused on as well and he's focused on those people.

Michael 57:53
Yeah, I would imagine that's probably one of the better strategies it's just not fucking read it, you know, just don't read the comments, right?

Elise 58:00
Because Oh, I also had this thought too, because I'm not sure what your your site your following is, but I got to this point where I'm like, Okay, I'm over 600,000 followers now. It's like 700,000 or whatever. And I'm like, damn, there are some people who hate me like just watch my shit. Comment negative shit on every single post. And I will never even know they exist.

Elise 58:21
I will never even know exists. I don't know who they are. Fantastic. I'm taking a real estate in someone's mind. And I will never even know that they exist on this planet. That's crazy. That made me feel so good. And for some reason, I'm like, Damn, it's like it's not even worth it.

Michael 58:36
Yeah, no, I definitely not that I don't know. I'm not even anywhere close to that, I think all told with with the podcasts between like Apple and Spotify and Google and all that. And there's a bunch of others that don't track anything. different apps I'm over 1000. So it's definitely nowhere and I don't I am not active on any anywhere in terms of trying to be a little bit better at it in terms of like doing live videos or do a little bit on Facebook. I should do more but you know I don't have the fucking time or at least maybe I just haven't made the time but I can't imagine having that many people. And yeah, there's got to be some negativity buried in there for sure. But I guess, you know, I guess like they say, you know, bad publicity is still publicity or whatever like and I guess that's you know, if they're watching just because they hate you, they're still watching. So I don't know. I haven't gotten a ton of negative comments, but I'm some for sure. More more in the Facebook group that I run, but then but I have the power to just be like, here's, boom, get the fuck out of here. You're gone. So I don't have to deal with you or not see you. But I've had I think I had a negative Facebook review and I just saw I was like, alright, well guess I'll just shut off the reviews. And this wasn't even a guy who just I kicked them out of the group because he was a prick. And he got butthurt about it and made a negative review but but he didn't know if I can think about me so I just shut those off. But I often wonder sometimes if I'm if I will ever if I ever to get to a point and that's not really a goal. I don't know. I'm just trying to help. But if I ever do get to 607 100,000 Like what I'd be able to deal with the negativity. If I do I'm fucking call on you and say, What did you say again? How did you What do I do? If it was his podcast to get? Help me, please? Well, at least thank you very much for doing this. I really do appreciate it. As you know, the last question I asked everybody is what words of wisdom would you impart to a man who's just starting his divorce process

Elise 1:00:40
apply lots and lots of self compassion and resist the desire to isolate you know, build your support system because I think a lot of men also feel like nobody will support them in a divorce. It's all gonna go to the woman they lose all their friends who lose all their family, but there will be people who support you and do not be afraid to reach out to them because they want to see you do okay and be okay as well. And that's what's going to help you through not not being alone and isolated.

Michael 1:01:08
Hey, man, I couldn't agree more. What's the best way for people to get in touch with you or find your content? How can people reach you?

Elise 1:01:15
You can find me anywhere at least Micheals Micheals spelt mi ch e a l s. Mike heels. Everybody's gonna mess it up. Even when you post this I'm sure it happens. Every time. Is there anybody can find me?

Michael 1:01:31
Is there. At least Micheals out there. That's like posing as you is there any?

Elise 1:01:36
I mean, I have a lot of fake accounts that will contact you for a reading and a donation. But that's not me. So just Just FYI, if I'm DMing you It's not me because I don't DM people. So yeah, I have a men's group that any man is welcome to join. It's not free. But it's you know, masterclasses every week and something to help them grow if they they want to community as well. So always love to have any men in that.

Michael 1:02:03
Yeah, awesome. Well, I appreciate you doing this and you know, hopefully we'll stay in touch and do it again sometime. Awesome. Thank you so much. I appreciate you. Yes, thank you. All right.

Elise 1:02:13

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